:popcorn:

Seriously, though, PI can never be a reliable place for more serious or focused discussion. It is what it is and it always will be.

Sometimes when the background noise is under control we have awesome moments of clarity here (good debates, Capital and other study threads etc) but there is no doubt anymore in my mind that those are exceptional moments and will never be 'the rule' here.



But look what happens when curious people come around, and the shit is hitting the fan for the nth time, and it's just a mess. Another freaking mess. New people, especially those with no knowledge of the other boards and user history and all that, they aren't going to want to stick around with this shit going on.

At one point I thought the best option might be to start a whole new board and use brand new user names and try to start fresh without anyone knowing where we are. But that's sorta silly.

We have SI, we have PopI, maybe we don't need a new site. At various times we've talked about making SI more active and accessible, or starting a new site.

I don't know. I don't mind having PI be what it is, as long as we can live with it.

But it's never gonna be anything different - we'll keep going around and around in circles here.

I don't know how to word this without it being a set-up for Kid to make fun of me..but I'll try anyway...There is something important that does happen when this strange constellation of people get together, as frustrated as we may be with it right now. And I don't mean the left/lib/board wars stuff, but I get such a fucking education from you people, sometimes it's things I should already know, sometimes it's things that are brand new. Sometimes it's just a slap-in-the-face perspective moment. I know I'm not the only one who can say this. (Don't get me wrong - when I say 'important' I don't mean beyond our 4 virtual walls, I'm not getting all grandiose or something here)

There is a need online for a place for discussion from a Marxist/class perspective. I don't think PI will ever be it - in part the url name itself precludes that from happening, but the history of the board is the main reason.

So can we let PI be what it is, for better or worse, and maybe focus on one of the other sites or a new site for the more focused, reasoned debate, study, discussion, with a clear no-bullshit policy?

Another thought would be to have an area set aside here with a clear no-bullshit policy, maybe make it read-only and grant permission to post there on a case-by-case basis or something.

I don't fucking know.

Not sure why it hasn't happened.

This a great statement, and I totally agree:

[div class="excerpt"]but I get such a fucking education from you people, sometimes it's things I should already know, sometimes it's things that are brand new. Sometimes it's just a slap-in-the-face perspective moment.[/quote]

when the libertarians (or whatever you want to call them) come around and start poking, or they start taking offense when we are visiting other sites. The best work I've seen from this group was the relatively closed house of Pop Indy. My contribution there was mostly reading, but I did a lot of it.

Maybe that is the way to do it. Grow one site where we can have substantive discussion (or just read if we want to), and open up a forum within that site for people who happen by.

I luvs u ALL.

I'd not be who I am w/out you.

The thoroughly anti-humanist I am in traffic is totally undone by my thoughts n feelings about the similarly not-too-personified folk here.

Mike, kid: you both matter intensely to me. Anax, well what can possibly be said except that were it not fer Mike priming the pump how could I have ever been -ready- for you?

Sure it's a mess. And let it be.

If this matters to no one else, and I Know tbat's not so, it matters to me in the most fundamental & transformative ways.

Thanks the gods for all of our various locksteps. As in all of history our messiness is the flickering flame of the promise that is at once not one of us and ALL of us at the same time.

So Fuck You All. And I mean that :)

Big O's all around. And then let's skip tha afterglow and continue to piss off one another and, far more importantly, the status quo.

Edit - pardon clunky assed PDA response, but had to say sumpin' an tha fly

Tease..yes!!!

Actually, I have a question. I know Chlamor gives folks hell in his every day life, and I know Dhal is pretty vocal/out there but..

..how do you guys figure what gets talked about here (the serious stuff, setting aside the internet drama club stuff) intersects with your everyday lives?

Because, as far as I can see, almost everyone's thinking in the real world when it comes to politics (and many other things, although certainly not everything) is muddled and drawn in 1000 different directions all of which are only consistent en toto if viewed in microcosm. Try to conenct this over here with that over there and you just get a splitting head ache. So you stop trying.

That is, perhaps, where we come in. Instead of mangling 27 different "theories" together we take out the old whetstone. Only our approach will be more like just bashing stuff against the stone and whatever doesn't shatter/crumble is what sticks.

I mean, sure you can write off all sorts of absurd things people say/talk about/think as just inaneities, but that misses the point that confusion is rife because there is a lack of coherence, a lack of substance, a lack of direction. You could also look at as malevolence but I think thats a fairly fringe case. Or malignancy too, but it starts to be semantics somewhere in there.

If the ship is set adrift, it makes little sense to complain that you're veering off-course.

So, an open discussion that touches on these topics (and its basically wide open when it comes to the subjects in question) in a grounded way would, really, be a new tack for internet discourse. At least in politics..as Mike has pointed out, other subject matter doesn't necessarily suffer from this same intractable problem

The people already at PI have more than enough chops when it comes to doing the research, compiling, archiving, offering commentary, connecting the dots, elaborating on background material and everything else.

Its not a question of ability or acumen, so what other roadblocks are there?

Grow one site where we can have substantive discussion (or just read if we want to), and open up a forum within that site for people who happen by.

I think you've suggested it before.

I'm like you, I mostly read anyway.

about the difference between 'making fun of' and 'teasing'.

And the word 'goo' should be used...er...liberally?!

I really think you have a point though, and I'm curious to see how others respond.

I think language has a big role in the muddling, which is why I've been interested lately in the idea of figuring out what liberals think they stand for (since they insist upon using the term 'leftist' so often) vs what the real-world implications are of the system/party they support. But that is peripheral, in a way.

As much as I can prattle on about minutiae here I tend to be a big-picture thinker, I tend to do best when I can link things together into something cohesive. At least when I take the time to focus and research and write (as opposed to just posting in my free moments on this board). And I'm hoping that in the coming year(s) my adventures will lead to some sort of understanding of what is happening, and tying those things together and getting a better sense of whether or not there even is a big-picture out there.

There is clarity here on the research-oriented threads of late to some extent. It all very clearly comes down to capitalism, and it becomes so fucking obvious when the 40 articles about (schools, urban farms, space program, etc) are all lined up in a thread. There is no pretending.

Sometimes we do make progress.

As far as roadblocks, there are many. Personally, it's my day job for now. I am a little hesitant to talk about all that on an open board right now. But you know what I'm talking about. Sorry, I am reacting to your post with this in the forefront, can't help it.

I dunno, you've made good points here, I think it's the start of a good conversation so lets try to flesh it out a little (sorry for the pukey corporate terminology there, heh).

Feel the flames!!

http://www.freefoto.com/images/11/27/11_27_9---Flames_web.jpg

I was angry and shot my mouth off, only because several people over there whom I have known for years, talked on the phone with etc., joined in with the howling mob. Of course it is "drama" and of course it is "personal." Others here have lost it and gone off the deep end before. It was stupid on my part, but whatever.

Lots of curious people lurk and read here, and they have no trouble following what is happening and are not being run off because the shit is hitting the fan. I don't think the shit hit the fan or things are a big freaking mess, nor that we are going in circles, anyway.

It depends upon what folks here want to do, and reading the posts today about that it is not clear to me what people want to do or what they are even talking about. All of this "we are wasting our time" and "this is all shit" and "we need to get to the serious stuff" talk - why not just do that then? What is the problem? I can't see why anything people want to do cannot be the rule here. Clear out the deadwood, ban the trolls, close the board to the public, whatever. I don't see how it can both be true that people are getting an education here, as several have said, bu a the same time it is all shit. People are chronically expressing dissatisfaction, as well as a desire to do something different, but I don't understand what they are dissatisfied with nor what they want to do.

If there is a need online for a place for discussion from a Marxist/class perspective, and it needs to be closed, that already exists - SI. I don't think a new url or new graphics will make any difference.

Those are my thoughts, but I don't know either.

it before - I'm a freak who likes organization so one forum appeals to me. ;)

Now with the three sites I have no idea which things should be posted where... But I do know I wouldn't botch up Pop Indy with a bunch of crap about OET so I'm thinking there's something of value in realizing that...

"Seriously, though"... OK, let's be serious. Take a look at SI right now. What do you see? I see very little traffic, and much of that does not rise to the level of PopI.

Now, look at the old PopI. What is the difference? A good bit of the traffic is based on what was, in effect, an ongoing class taught by me, with Rusty and Kiddo as full time students - very good ones because we hung long debates off their questions. A good deal of the remainder was the stuff around the "What an asshole" series, which was driven alternately by Chlamor and again by me (thank non-god for Chlamor). All of it was a very great deal of work for a site with very few readers. I'm not complaining... it was worth it... but I can't justify it anymore. I have (political) responsibilities which take precedence. So I can't join you on your safe-site. I can continue to post to this one because it has a wider audience by nature and I don't have to drive it. Someday, you won't need me to do this but that is not today.

You want to try it anyway? Try it on SI. So far I see mostly gossip except for hero-of-socialist-labor Mary.

You want to stop going around and around with Liberals? Fine. Stop. So far, I only know one person who is really good at that "continuing education", and that's Chlamor - The 'Ghost', and even he skirts the edge on occasion. They aren't really "Liberals", anyway. Liberals are Walter Mondale, and George Soros, and Jeremy Bentham. You are describing people who are try to adopt liberal ideas to fend off a body politic that is eating them. They also try to adopt libertarian and sometimes Fascist ideas. They are the products of a society that defined everyone as middle-class until just recently. They are a mixed bag... more so then around here but not by that much.

Not help this site or some other site, but us - we here. We, the ones here who want help. Now, we may not be a very worthy cadre...but we are here, and...

the Professor really was in at Pop Indy.

Some of the things that were said back then are still emblazoned on my brain.

Just want to highlight and second this

They are incredibly informative. I am not diminishing them, at all. I just am wondering...

.

and if I could figure out how to get into Pop Indy, I get the idea something is going on there??? Anyway please let me know what you decide to do with this!! Or I'll really feel like chopped liver...

We all are on the line...

:grin:

It's just work... quiet, consistent work. There are categories of threads around here but, not the important categories. There should be a forum for labor news, one for international news, and - right now - one for the entire "immigration issue". It is not enough to create a forum. People should volunteer to be responsible for each forum and not just write about what occurs to them but spend real time hunting out the important stuff, finding translations, and summarizing content so that non-specialists get what is important. There was once a a very rich working class culture in the U.S., full of publications, poetry, personal stories, etc. Much of it is online but in university archives and such. It's time to find it again. In all of this, what matters is consistent work, not for a burst, but month after month. The focus should be outward, not inward. The inward stuff will take care of itself... or not.

Once upon a time, there were thousands of people in the U.S. who were trained and could pass it on. I don't know what happened to them... on second thought, I do. It's the same thing as the myth of the New Deal... it died. Some of it was interrupted by the 1960s. There were many people who were born of the Civil Rights movement and were terrific but lost some of the class content of the "old" Civil Rights movement (quick, what Party did DuBois belong to?). The "new left" was often far more disruptive. A lot got lost.

I'm all you've got at the moment in the training department. It's not enough. The former-Kid is a comer. We should use him more and more. Pinko is committed to being personally eccentric. We should pound him until he straightens out and pays the piper. The pig is a wiley old veteran... he keeps talking about his weaknesses but I see nothing but strengths. We have to figure out how to use him where he's comfy. Chlamor is a force of nature... and there will be many, many more as we develop... as we develop, not a partisanship, but a style of work. Talk is cheap, cheap, cheap...

The good news is that everybody is a "socialist", who has avoided sectarian shit and has a "love of truth"... Great. Really.

Now apply it to our own weaknesses. Use the same laser. It's not a matter of "belief"... it's hard to be a Commie.

But it's also easy... tovarisch.

I meant it in the sense of "everything we need to know is probably already written at Pop Indy somewhere". That may only be a truism, but its a powerful one.

but its like Sleepy Hollow, stuff is definitely going on there..

(bring out yer dead..)

http://images.elfwood.com/fanq/a/l/allie57/sleepy_hollow_unfinished_copy.jpg

I just second what Dhlagren said.

I really missed the boat on PopI. Every time I read over there I am amazed. I was barely there at the time. There is no doubt that the place is chock full of excellent reading and research.

Your post 18 is ~very~ helpful.

Maybe more later after more coffee..

I wish I could do a tenth as much.

The dissatisfaction may stem from the bigger picture - things kid's talking about in post 4. And you guys are all right about SI. I don't know why I can't seem to get engaged in conversation there but a lot of it has to do with my inability to focus on anything serious. I'm coming to realize more and more that it's my own fucking problem, actually. It's a lot easier to engage in tedious back-n-forth crap when I have 5 minutes at a time to read and post or I'm brain-dead at the end of the workday.

I'm sorry I started yet another thread about website crap but there's some good stuff coming out here so it's okay.

you should change your name to Wile E Pig or something like that

If you do I will change to The Former-Kid Formerly of the Black Hole

;)

I think there were a few who read it. BP did show up in my column to tell me getting rid of capitalism would help the critters, which is one comment I took to heart. :)

I may not know much, but I am willing to work and learn. Perhaps I could work on International News by myself or with someone else. I can do searches, I know there is a lot going on in South America right now, Greece, Iceland.

Honestly, I feel more like Porky. Goes to show the guy ain't right all of the time, just 99%.

He's right, right, right about the research tho', my technique sucks. The 'truffle hunt', throwing some key words at Google and seeing what happens, does lead to some 'interesting' places but overall ain't too productive. Any suggestions appreciated.

A thump on the head, a push in the back, a kick in the butt.

Thanks. Let's do something. I'll be back...

http://tucsoncitizen.com/retroflections/files/2010/01/VintageWomanOnPhone.gif

that's where I'm going...

I really don't do that much, post stuff about stuff, most I plan to get to and can't...my husband wishes I did a lot less, we battle, and I have to juggle...my job is taking up a lot of my energy, at least I think I help some members of my local...
Household stuff today, laundry, dust elephants...and a student event...juggling...

http://www.wittemuseum.org/images/Circus%2005/Juggler.jpg

You've mentioned this before, great stuff, and will simplify and time save hugely if all followed your advice...I'm getting to the point where the online personal stuff is something I have to let go of, to a huge degree...no time for egos, as a take off on chlam's old sig: "in other times, personal issues should be considered, these are not those times..." (makes me a liar in my last post below???...)

Pig knows poverty, started to write up stuff on real life poverty he sees in his work before, I can send him links on stuff that I don't have time to really get into...

Mike does make points on ag and food...

I'll be sticking with labor and single payer (a little anti-war stuff***) for now...all spokes in the umbrella of economic justice...

***And the glutton is the military, takes up half the empirical umbrella...and is the most blood thirsty and the main propaganda spewer...

dishes call...solidarity...

and can read anyway! :)