Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crashes in east Ukraine, reports say
Flight MH17 believed to be carrying 295 people on board goes down near town of Snizhne, says Russian news agency

Shaun Walker in Kiev and Tania Branigan in Beijing
theguardian.com, Thursday 17 July 2014 12.08 ED


A passenger jet has reportedly crashed in eastern Ukraine in an area where separatist rebels have been engaging Ukrainian military forces in recent weeks.

The Ukrainian official Anton Gerashchenko said 280 passengers and 15 crew were on board.

The Malaysia Airlines plane, travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, apparently crashed near the town of Snizhe, according to a report from Interfax news agency which could not immediately be confirmed. Other reports suggested it had crashed close to the nearby town of Torez.

Malaysia Airlines said via its Twitter feed: "Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow."

A source in the Russian aviation industry told Reuters that the plane did not enter Russian airspace when expected and had crashed in eastern Ukraine ...

More here - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-east-ukraine

And already the Russians and Donbas rebels are being blamed. No way it was the Russians and very unlikely but theoretically possible it was the rebels, they have one missle system capable of such altitude. Ukes have many(where ya think the rebels got theirs?) and with their military efforts in shambles... a nasty false flag like this is what passes for genius among those scum.

So far everyone is denying involvement.

Already the contradictions grow, Kiev says it had no aircraft in area, UK military says otherwise.

And then there's this:

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

The nut of it being that Putin's plane was on same flight path. Would the Ukes be stupid enough to try this? Would the Nazis be incompetent enough to fuck it up? Let recent history be your guide...

And already the Russians and Donbas rebels are being blamed. No way it was the Russians and very unlikely but theoretically possible it was the rebels, they have one missle system capable of such altitude. Ukes have many(where ya think the rebels got theirs?) and with their military efforts in shambles... a nasty false flag like this is what passes for genius among those scum.

This bullshit is like celeb reality shows. Whoever shot down the plane did it by accident. There is no percentage in "false flags" and the rest... This is just more conspiracy mongering and it is PB to the core.

The people responsible are whoever let civil routes continue over a war zone... either the Ukrainian AA or International. Malaysia and Holland get a piece of it too.

The propaganda efforts are real but the people who died are no more "innocent" than the ten times as many who have died in Donbas.

Those who obsess over this will play to US and Kiev bullshit.

This bullshit is like celeb reality shows. Whoever shot down the plane did it by accident. There is no percentage in "false flags" and the rest... This is just more conspiracy mongering and it is PB to the core.

The people responsible are whoever let civil routes continue over a war zone... either the Ukrainian AA or International. Malaysia and Holland get a piece of it too.

The propaganda efforts are real but the people who died are no more "innocent" than the ten times as many who have died in Donbas.

Those who obsess over this will play to US and Kiev bullshit.

Too easy to get caught up in it, especially at twitter.

You're right about 'no percentage', rationally, it is only that rationality is not the strong suit of the people running Kiev. Certainly it is possible that Donbas's single BUK did the deed though the numbers give the percentage to Maiden and there is the issue of their command structure, such as it is. Rouge behavior of Uke forces has precedent.

Thanks for the reminder.

Probably rebels hit it by accident - that sounds more likely than any other scenario I've heard. Ukraine's prime minister along with the war-loving internet trolls are determined to beat the war drums while calling for Putin's head. I can't imagine what he'd have to gain from shooting down a passenger jet.

This bullshit is like celeb reality shows. Whoever shot down the plane did it by accident. There is no percentage in "false flags" and the rest... This is just more conspiracy mongering and it is PB to the core.

The people responsible are whoever let civil routes continue over a war zone... either the Ukrainian AA or International. Malaysia and Holland get a piece of it too.

The propaganda efforts are real but the people who died are no more "innocent" than the ten times as many who have died in Donbas.

Those who obsess over this will play to US and Kiev bullshit.


Here is the usually reliable Gleb Bazov's blog, who seems much in the 'on purpose' camp at the moment. Looks like Paul J Watson is all over this, which makes me nervous. Some of the other material here is too reminscent of the 911 circus.

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/breaking-part-ii-evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh17-is-a-false-flag-operation/

Yes indeed, perspective.

The baseless conjecture is strong with them. This is why "rumor-mongering" was regarded so seriously and negatively.

It turns out that the IATA is pointing fingers at the Ukrainian CAA. Apparently, there were no restrictions on flights over Donbas.

It turns out that the IATA is pointing fingers at the Ukrainian CAA. Apparently, there were no restrictions on flights over Donbas.

Which we can be confident will get the 'Blix' treatment by the propaganda machine.

The next question is why this was so. If closing air space would cause loss of revenue there is a pretty reliable explanation.

Good comment BP. I know there are always power plays as well but sometimes follow the money (loss of revenue) is actually the explanation. If the Ukraine gov't was stupid enough to keep that airspace open & the rebels were shooting down cargo flights then it was an accident waiting to happen.

A word of caution about preliminary conclusions

I am very sorry to have to tell you all that it is too early to conclude that the Novorussian forces did not shoot down the Malaysian airliners. Though most Novorussian air defense systems are man-portable, the Resistance forces did get their hands on some 9K37 Buk missile systems which are quite capable of hitting a civilian airliner at normal cruising speed and altitude.

I am not, repeat, NOT saying that the Novorussians did it. Furthermore, at least one Russian military expert, Igor Korochenko, has declared that the Ukrainian side had officially declared that the Ukrainian soldiers had managed to disable these systems before they fell into the Novorussian hands. But even that is hardly proof of anything. First, I have seen no such Ukrainian official statement. Second, the Ukrainians soldiers could have lied to cover their collective read ends. Third, the Novorusssians could have fixed these systems. So unless the Novorussians have some solid proof that their Buks were inoperable, they have to be included in a list of possible suspects.

There are already speculations about a false flag, about Ukie military aircraft seen flying next to the Malaysian aircraft, even about some parachutes seen near the place were the plane was shot down. I have even seen some speculations about Putin's official aircraft looking like the Malaysian one and that this could have been an attempt to shoot it down. Clearly the rumor mill is blasting at full power.

Still, the Ukies have already immensely benefited from this incident: now that all the media is completely focused on what happened to this Malaysian airliner, nobody is informed of the catastrophic failure of Poroshenko "surprise" offensive. Right there we already have the first cui bono going to the junta. Second, since no matter what happened the western regimes and media will blame the Russians for this incident, the Ukies will use it in their propaganda campaign (they apparently have already asked NATO for "help" whatever that means). So that is a second cui bono for the junta. As for the Novorussians and Russia, this incident is really the last thing they need.

For whatever it's worth, and without wanting to give anybody false hopes, I personally think that it is extremely unlikely that the Russians did it because they have a fully integrated, multi layered, advance air defense systems staffed only by specialists. In contrast, the Ukies have an old, decrepit, non-integrated air defense "system" staffed by underpaid, demoralized and poorly trained conscripts. And since the Kremlin likes to maintain the illusion that it does not control the Novorussians, even if there is proof that the latter are responsible for this catastrophe, this will not directly implicate Russia (which would have been the worst option). I hope that the Russians will be able to prove that the Novorussians did not do it by, for example, finding key parts of the missile(s) which hit MH17 or by showing all the Resistance missiles "unshot", right there in the hangars were they were found.

Another thing which has not been done is a careful calculation of the exact flight envelope of the missiles in Novorussian hands. In the real world, you cannot just say that a missile can shoot a target going at speed X and altitude Y. You need to calculate an exact flight envelope and compare it against the exact flight characteristics of the target supposedly hit. In other words, until somebody makes such an analysis, there is no proof that the Novorussian Buks could have shot down this aircraft.

Then, let's see what the black boxes show. Apparently, those were found by the good guys and sent to Moscow. Also, the Russian Air Defenses have the exact flight parameters of the Malaysian aircraft and of any missile(s) which could have hit him. If the Ukies did it, chances are pretty good that the Russians will be able to prove it. Alas, if the Novorussians did it, the Russians will probably also provide the evidence as covering up for it would be foolish.

For the time being, let's not run after each rumor and let's just wait for 48 hours or so, when at least we will have some facts to look at. And let's pray that this was not a mistake by the Novorussians.

The Saker

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/

Saker's pretty good when his 'analysist' hat is on straight.

GRANMA INTERNATIONAL

An unheard of provocation
by Fidel Castro

THIS morning the cables were full of reports about the unheard-of news that a
Malaysia Airlines passenger plane had been hit at an altitude of 10,100 meters as it flew over Ukrainian territory, along a route controlled by the war-hungry government of chocolate king, Petro Poroshenko.

Cuba, which has always stood in solidarity with the Ukrainian people, and in the difficult days of the Chernobyl tragedy provided medical care to the many children affected by the accident’s harmful radiation, and is always willing to continue doing so, cannot refrain from expressing our repudiation of the action of the anti-Russian, anti-Ukrainian and pro-imperialist government.

At the same time, coinciding with the Malaysian aircraft crime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, head of the nuclear state, ordered his army to invade the Gaza Strip, where, over the last several days, hundreds of Palestinians have died, many of them children. The President of the United States supported the action, describing the repugnant act as legitimate defense.

Obama does not support David against Goliath, but rather Goliath against David. As is known, young men and women from the Israeli people, well prepared for productive work, are being exposed to a death without honor, without glory. I am not aware of the Palestinian’s military strategy, but I know that a combatant prepared to die can defend even the ruins of a building, as long as he has his rifle, as the heroic defenders of Stalingrad demonstrated.

I only wish to express my solidarity with the heroic people who defend the last sliver remaining of what was their homeland for thousands of years.

Fidel Castro Ruz
July 17, 2014
11:14 p.m. •

Between the intense and shameless media offensive being waged by Western governments and media and the proliferation of CT I'm in headbang mode.Jesusfuckingchrist what a mess.

Alexander Borodai 19 July press conference about Malaysia #MH17 crash


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AuZ1Ok3s_I&feature=player_embedded

Russian army data points to Ukrainian role in Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash

At a press conference yesterday in Moscow, the Russian Defense Ministry presented detailed radar and satellite data on the movement of forces loyal to the Ukrainian regime in Kiev before Thursday's crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. These data raise the most serious questions about the possible involvement of the Kiev regime and its Western backers in the crash.

The evidence presented by Lieutenant General Andrei Kartopolov, the head of the Russian armed forces' Main Operations Directorate, show that MH17 was being trailed by a Ukrainian fighter jet and was in range of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles and fire control radars at the time of the crash. The Russian data confirm Russian and European media reports, citing Kiev air traffic controllers, that Ukrainian fighters and air traffic control were following the plane intensively just before it crashed.

Kartopolov presented radar data showing a Ukrainian jet, apparently a Sukhoi-25 fighter, following the Malaysian jetliner. “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, its distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5 km,” he said. “[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost at same time and at the same level as a passenger plane.”

Kartopolov noted that this fighter jet was itself in position to destroy the passenger liner with a missile. “The SU-25 can reach an altitude of 10km, according to its specifications. It's equipped with R60 air-to-air missiles that can hit a target at a distance of up to 12 km, up to 5km for sure,” he said.

At the same time as it was being trailed by a Ukrainian fighter, MH 17 “deviated from its route towards the north,” Kartopolov reported. “The maximum deviation was 14 km.”

Kartopolov also presented Russian satellite images dated July 14 of Ukrainian Buk surface-to-air missile batteries—the type of missile that Washington alleges brought down flight MH17—stationed near Luhansk and at a Ukrainian radar station near Donetsk.

On July 17, the day of the MH17 crash, however, one of the missile batteries was moved from this area to a location from which it could have fired on and destroyed flight MH17.

This movement of the missile launcher is extremely unusual, as the Ukrainian Buk missiles were being deployed to an area near the main pro-Russian separatist bases. It begs the question of why the Kiev regime would have risked sending a missile battery to such an exposed location. Russian images after the crash, dated July 18, showed that the missile battery had moved back to where it had been previously.

Kartopolov also said that Russian forces had detected increased electronic activity by radar stations providing targeting information to the Ukrainian Buk batteries.

“On July 17 the intensity of Ukrainian radar stations increased to the maximum,” he said, adding that seven Ukrainian radar stations were active in the region on July 15, eight on July 16, and nine on July 17. On July 18, however, only four were operating, and only two on July 19.

He also called on Washington to publish the data from a US satellite that Russian forces tracked over east Ukraine at the time of the crash. While US officials have said that their satellites detected the heat signature from the firing of a missile shortly before MH17 crashed, they have until now refused to publish any satellite data or identify specifically who they believe launched the missile.

“According to the statements of US representatives, they have satellite pictures confirming that the [missile] launched toward the Malaysian plane was carried out by militia. But no one has seen these pictures,” Kartopolov said.

Kartopolov's presentation is a devastating exposure of the mind-numbing propaganda campaign of the Western governments and media, where the claim that is universally accepted that Russia and pro-Russian separatist groups fighting the Kiev regime in east Ukraine are responsible for the crash. This grotesquely one-sided presentation, totally excluding the possibility of foul play by the Kiev regime, is a fraud aimed at keeping the public in the dark on basic facts surrounding the crash.

The detailed evidence presented by Russia and Washington's silence strongly suggests that the data Washington in fact has does not support, but rather undermines its own propaganda campaign against Russia, pointing instead to the Kiev regime.

This immediately raises the questions of the responsibility of the Western imperialist powers, above all of elements of the American state, in the destruction of MH17. The fascist militias and National Guard units Kiev has deployed in east Ukraine work closely with CIA operatives and mercenaries from the US firm formerly known as Blackwater.

Significantly, while Obama has repeatedly spoken on the Ukraine crisis in order to cynically denounce Russia, he has himself never formally taken a position on who ordered the shooting down of MH17.

On Friday, for example, Obama stated: “I think it’s too early for us to be able to guess what intentions those who might have launched the surface-to-air missile might have had… In terms of identifying specifically what individual or group of individuals, you know, personnel ordered the strike, how it came about—those are things that I think are going to be subject to additional information that we’re going to be gathering.”

The US president has not made any more specific statement on the issue of who fired the missile since then. If sections of the US state and its allies in Ukraine carried out the attack on MH17, it is not certain that Obama would have been aware of the operation—a fact that might explain the president’s equivocal and uncertain statements on the matter, even as he escalates threats against Russia.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/22/russ-j22.html

What are the politics of the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17?
24 July 2014
A US State Department press briefing Monday by spokeswoman Marie Harf on the crash of flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine made clear that the US government and media have no credible evidence to support their allegations of Russian involvement in this horrible tragedy. Repeatedly challenged to substantiate such charges by Associated Press (AP) reporter Matt Lee, Harf could not present any concrete information whatsoever.

Lee first cited the Russian army’s presentation of radar data and satellite images showing the Kiev regime’s warplanes and missile batteries tracking MH17 shortly before the crash. He then asked her to respond to Moscow’s request that Washington publish documentation to substantiate its version of events, such as data from a US spy satellite that Moscow observed in the area at the time of the crash.

Harf’s reply was simply vacuous. She said, “We know, we saw in social media afterwards, we saw videos, we saw photos of the pro-Russian separatists bragging about shooting down an aircraft that then they then…excuse me, took down once it became clear that it may have been a passenger airline.”

Lee asked Harf whether Washington would release any hard evidence like the data provided by the Russian army. Harf refused to even address the issue, simply claiming that she had not bothered to watch the Russian army’s presentation. “I haven’t seen any of that,” she said.

Lee pressed Harf on how Washington in fact knows that the missile was fired from territory held by the pro-Russian forces. Harf replied, “We do know first that Russian-backed separatists were in possession of an SA-11 [surface-to-air missile] system as early as Monday, July 14. This is from intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government.”

Lee interrupted Harf to ask whether Washington could release any evidence for its claims besides social media postings. Harf’s reply made clear it could not: “If there’s more information that that’s based on that we can share, we’re happy to do so. We’ll continue looking at that. But look, this is what we know as of right now. Based on open information which is basically common sense, right, we know where it was fired from, we know who has this weapon.” She added, “I know it’s frustrating. Believe me, we try to get as much out there as possible. And for some reason, sometimes we can’t.”

It is astounding that the US government would expect anyone to accept such nonsense as evidence of anything. US intelligence agencies collectively spend hundreds of billions of dollars yearly on massive surveillance operations; they apparently were monitoring the area of the crash via satellite. The only evidence Harf cited, however, was an obscure audio recording of a conversation between two unknown operatives posted to YouTube by the Ukrainian Security Service, which is controlled by the CIA.

Its contents prove nothing. Ukrainian forces also have SA-11 missile systems and could have fired them at MH17. One missile launcher, serial number 312, that media initially charged had launched a missile at MH17 proved to be part of the Ukrainian army’s arsenal.

This is a modus operandi US imperialism has used for years: relying on unverified claims about terrifying subjects like weapons of mass destruction or plane crashes to railroad the American people into war, with terrible consequences. US Secretary of State Colin Powell’s 2003 presentation at the UN, claiming that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, proved to be a pack of lies. Last year’s claims that Syria had used chemical weapons, utilized to press for a war, were exposed by journalist Seymour Hersh as a fabrication by Turkey, Al Qaeda and factions of the American state.

Significantly, President Obama and US Secretary of State John Kerry have raised questions about the current crisis with Russia, with Obama warning of “misinformation” in the media and Kerry stressing that he did not want to address the issue of Russian “culpability” for the disaster.

Nonetheless, the Western media campaign against Russia continues unabated. Writing Wednesday in the New York Times, Bernard-Henri Lévy rabidly denounced Putin, blaming him for the crash. Lévy wrote: “He has taken thugs, thieves, rapists, ex-cons and vandals and turned them into a paramilitary force… To this motley collection Mr. Putin, the Russian president, gave a terrifying arsenal with which the amateur soldiers were unfamiliar and with which they have been playing, like kids with fireworks.”

Such vitriolic denunciations of Putin and Russia are calls for a NATO intervention in Ukraine that directly risks escalating the civil war provoked by the NATO-backed, fascist-led putsch last February into a global nuclear war. In a filthy article in the New York Times, columnist Roger Cohen argued for ignoring the results of the investigation of the MH17 crash and instead invading Ukraine and risking world war.

In his piece entitled “The Suns of August,” he wrote: “A century on from World War I, nobody wants the guns of August. Yet it must be asked if waiting years for the evasive conclusions of an official investigation into the fate of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is better than acting now on what we already know… Russia would veto any United Nations Security Council Resolution authorizing force for a limited mission to recover the bodies and the evidence. But Ukraine, on whose territory the debris and dead lie, would support it. The American, British, Dutch and Australian governments should set an ultimatum backed by the credible threat of force demanding unfettered access to the [crash] site.”

The most urgent warnings to the international working class are necessary. Columnists like Cohen and the intelligence agencies for which they speak threaten to unleash a war whose toll would be at least in the hundreds of millions. In a speech this week, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that he would defend Russia’s territorial integrity and had the weapons to do so. The Russian military arsenal, like the American, includes enough nuclear weapons to destroy the planet several times over.

While the factual evidence has yet to emerge to allow investigators to determine what caused the crash, political evidence accumulates each day that the Western media, speaking for sections of the American and European ruling classes, is intent on provoking a war. What do people willing to risk such a war care for the lives of 298 people on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17?

Alex Lantier

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/24/pers-j24.html

Russian Ministry of Defence: Still No Evidence of US Version of the #MH17 Crash

Preamble: In this Russian Ministry of Defence press-conference, the Russian Deputy Defense Minister, Anatoly Antonov, states that neither Ukraine nor Western countries have bothered to respond to the data presented by the Ministry earlier regarding the Boeing 777 (Flight MH17) crash in Ukraine. At the same time, according to Antonov, despite the US alleging a certain version of the events, it has yet to provide any evidence for its accusations. The post includes the following:

Video: Russian Ministry of Defence: Still No Evidence of US Version of the #MH17 Crash (w/ENG subs)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b13Bcse9XoQ&feature=player_embedded

Note: For subtitles, kindly click on “Caption” next to the Settings Wheel in the lower right-hand corner


http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/25/russian-ministry-of-defence-still-no-evidence-of-us-version-of-the-mh17-crash/