I'll start out with a public apology to both Mikes and to Rusty. First one to MBerst for not talking with him offline about the the events a few years ago and and not realizing how harsh and unfair I was to toss him off the forum.

The second one is to fucking Chlamor who, it galls me to say, hasn't been wrong about anything since I've known him.

The third one is to Illiterate President who loyally stuck to PI until I got pissed at his UteroFascist post and his relentless fighting with certain people who, in hindsight, I must admit, had absolutely no place at PI.

I'm sorry. I was new at this, exhausted from a 60/hr/week job and not sleeping because I'd spend hours just trying to figure out some stupid line of code.

Well here goes guys. You're all as pig-headed as I am but I give in because I was wrong. Not to mention that I have missed you.

During normal times, I could live with the knowledge that I was wrong and leave it at that but there's too much going on right now, that people need to resist, so I can't leave it as a mental mea culpa.

I would like to work together again.

If you're interested, just let me know your terms. If it means merging the two forums and co_Admining, I'm game. I'm willing to go that far.

I'm going to be leaving the country within a few months and am going to transition PI to VBulletin which allows for a more member-driven administration. Everything's in place for that but I still need to work out a few bugs.

The Annointed one has exceeded my wildest predictions and scared the shit out of me. I'd like to discuss working together again and making a difference while we still can.

Thank you Mike for activating my account here.

Start a Gallery of Assholes and I will see if I can help to fill it...

Done. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

Let me guess, first candidate, the great O himself? Or maybe even me. I daresay I'd deserve it.

Thank you Anaxarchos

Done. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

Let me guess, first candidate, the great O himself? Or maybe even me. I daresay I'd deserve it.

Thank you Anaxarchos


Let's start with the bunch from PopI... They were a lively bunch and there is always room for more.

Can I be in the gallery this time? ;D

Good to see you, Tinoire. Thanks for that post.

Hey Tin,



Done. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

Let me guess, first candidate, the great O himself? Or maybe even me. I daresay I'd deserve it.

Thank you Anaxarchos


Let's start with the bunch from PopI... They were a lively bunch and there is always room for more.



Yeah we had something going over there that is only completely revealed in hindsight

PS Heya Tin..not much else to say except lets try to keep the drama away this time ;)

What bunch? Never mind, don't share. There are enough assholes floating around to fill it overnight.

In this thread, for example "OBAMA Considering - Covering Up Torture By Permitting Detainees To Plead Guilty & Be Executed" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5794913

That news has gotten totally under my skin. If there's anything I loathe more than Obama, it's an Obama cheerleader.

Gallery of Assholes? This is going to be brutal but it's overdue.

Can I be in the gallery this time? ;D

Good to see you, Tinoire. Thanks for that post.




Mike it's always good to see you, wherever I had to go to read your posts. I especially appreciated your graciousness. Thank you for setting an example in letting things go and reaching out. I can't ever see you in that gallery.

Hey Tin,



Done. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

Let me guess, first candidate, the great O himself? Or maybe even me. I daresay I'd deserve it.

Thank you Anaxarchos


Let's start with the bunch from PopI... They were a lively bunch and there is always room for more.



Yeah we had something going over there that is only completely revealed in hindsight

PS Heya Tin..not much else to say except lets try to keep the drama away this time ;)


Hi Kid!

Definitely. I've learned an awful lot. The lessons were hurtful but valuable and important.

In solidarity

Wow.

Let me say to the others, as I know Cassandra well enough to say, that this took a great deal of courage for her to do this. I'm a little stunned quite frankly and terribly impressed.

Be careful what you ask for? LOL.

I'll buy the first round.

BTW whatever happened to the PI Bar and Grill? I missed it somehow when I looked over there the last few days.

Not so much courage but getting over the prideful fear that you guys would rightfully pillory me out in the wide open of the internet for having been so pig-headed and for having treated some people here very shabbily. Not to mention for having been so wrong.

But thank you Chlamor because it wasn't easy. What bothers me is that I've been thinking about it for over a year and didn't have the integrity to do it sooner. I know exactly what I'm asking for- strong, insightful allies to forgive me because I couldn't accept it when they told me the truth and had no patience for fools.

We got rid of the bar and grill because it hurt me to see people making very good posts in there but not getting any answers. We also figured PI was so small and so effing serious with depressing news that GD could use a little levity and that combining them would allow people to know each other better. I'm not sure I made the right decision. I put it up to a poll but in restrospect it was a push poll. The software we're using right now doesn't encourage us to have as many forums as we do. Anytime we add a new moderator, it takes an hour to do so I end up hating the various forums.

Using DU's model was stupid (haha, you're right again Chlamor- I remember every damn discussion we ever had). Personally, I'm not a fan of having so many forums and would prefer a system where everything is in GD but tagged with specific categories and keywords that people could filter. I'm pretty sure the new software has that ability but I didn't set it up to do that. It can definitely filter by keyword but I'm not sure about categories.

We could bring the B&G back; it wouldn't take me more than a few hours to identify the posts that were there since we have an archive of all the pre-Dec posts. The rest wouldn't be that hard to identify and move to repopulate.

No need to be impressed. I'm scared shitless about where O is taking this country and that kind of evaporated any pride I had left about admitting I was wrong. I'm overwhelmed that you've all been so gracious.

Both you and Mberst really helped with this by setting an example that some things were more important than pride. And the rest of you helped by not giving in.

If I could undo the events of a few years ago, I sincerely would. I backed myself into a corner and then refused to budge. I am very sorry.

On edit: Oh, and I'll just have a small wine spritzer thanks :)

Wow.

Let me say to the others, as I know Cassandra well enough to say, that this took a great deal of courage for her to do this. I'm a little stunned quite frankly and terribly impressed.

Be careful what you ask for? LOL.

I'll buy the first round.

BTW whatever happened to the PI Bar and Grill? I missed it somehow when I looked over there the last few days.



Hear, hear.

...you guys would rightfully pillory me...


Kid usually handles all of the pillorying, but he seems to have lost his touch since he got banged up and they put him in a body cast.

...you guys would rightfully pillory me...


Kid usually handles all of the pillorying, but he seems to have lost his touch since he got banged up and they put him in a body cast.


Lol! Really, you know how people like to say "You owe me a new keyboard"? I kid you not, I I just got done replying to your kind PM, was listening to the Zola Taylor song I mentioned, read this and sprayed the monitor.

I could tell Kid lost his touch because the person I was expecting to hammer me the most was Kid. And also Megan whose pilloring I deserve for growning out her advice when she stuck to me regardless.

I'll just say "welcome Tinoire". I don't know you so we are friends. It is better for us all to work together, we have quite an opponent in the white house now.

Thanks TBF. I caught your posts at the OET and really liked them, as well as the ones you've made at PI.

Thanks for the welcome. I feel very much among friends here because I've know Chlamor and Mike for many years. It's gotten so I can spot them on any forum regardless of their username. Thanks for the welcome. Sincerely, thanks, to you and everyone. I'm a bit overwhelmed.

Lol! Really, you know how people like to say "You owe me a new keyboard"? I kid you not, I I just got done replying to your kind PM, was listening to the Zola Taylor song I mentioned, read this and sprayed the monitor.

I could tell Kid lost his touch because the person I was expecting to hammer me the most was Kid. And also Megan whose pilloring I deserve for growning out her advice when she stuck to me regardless.


Kid actually was in a bad car wreck a while back - scared the crap out of us, but he is on the road back.

I remember about 2 years ago saying that a calamity was right on the horizon, a tidal wave of trouble - about 12 months away or so - and that it would then be a matter of "stand by to pick up survivors." The Obama zealots are still claiming that the ship is on course and sailing nicely, and that all we need to do it have total faith in the captain, and they deny the wreckage floating all around us. I guess we are all supposed to sit on the deck and admire him while the ship goes down.

LOL. I am listening to Zola over and over again now. Great stuff. The pictures are great too - she sure is easy on the eyes.

I think Billie Holiday wrote the lyrics...

I'd wait for you
I'd slave for you
I'd be a beggar or a knave for you
If that isn't love, it will have to do
Until the real thing comes along

Id gladly move
The earth for you
To prove my love, dear
And its worth for you
If that isn't love, it will have to do
Until the real thing comes along.

With all the words, dear, at my command
I just can't make you understand
I'll always love you darling
Come what may
My heart is yours
What more can I say?

I'd lie for you
I'd sigh for you
I'd tear the stars down from the sky for you
If that isn't love, it will have to do
Until the real thing comes along

With all the words, dear, at my command
I just cant make you understand
I'll always love you baby
Come what may
My heart is yours
What more can I say?

I'd lie for you
I'd cry for you
I'd lay my body down and die tor you
If that isn't love, it will have to do
Until the real thing comes along

Speaking of which...

http://www.last.fm/listen/artist/Billie%2BHoliday/similarartists#pane=webRadioPlayer&station=%252Flisten%252Fartist%252FBillie%252BHoliday%252Fsimilarartists

Kid actually was in a bad car wreck a while back - scared the crap out of us, but he is on the road back.

I remember about 2 years ago saying that a calamity was right on the horizon, a tidal wave of trouble - about 12 months away or so - and that it would then be a matter of "stand by to pick up survivors." The Obama zealots are still claiming that the ship is on course and sailing nicely, and that all we need to do it have total faith in the captain, and they deny the wreckage floating all around us. I guess we are all supposed to sit on the deck and admire him while the ship goes down.


Oh no!! I am so sorry to hear this but relieved Kid is ok. I thought the prior comment about him getting banged up was metaphorical. Kid, glad you're still around!

Mike? Please don't get me started about those bots. I've had to control myself at PI being an Admin and all but I hate those fucking assholes. Nobody can be that blind- not even willfully. When I hear them condoning the torture and execution of innocents who were picked up for our oil lines all my black heart thinks is "fine, let it be your kids next". I can't tell politely express how much I loathe them.

Hi Tinoire!

I've been Nicely Nicely since the early days of the Elections Forum on DU. The worst that's happened is a reference to me as having "Clinton Derangement Syndrome," which was a backhanded compliment (on another forum).

These posters on PI (or will it be "Socialist Independent";) would ad a great deal I'm sure.

Hi Tinoire!

I've been Nicely Nicely since the early days of the Elections Forum on DU. The worst that's happened is a reference to me as having "Clinton Derangement Syndrome," which was a backhanded compliment (on another forum).

These posters on PI (or will it be "Socialist Independent";) would ad a great deal I'm sure.




Hi Junius!

I read your posts here- good stuff. I don't know you fom DU because, as I was telling TIA earlier, numbers bore me to tears but I firmly believe Bush stole both elections. TIA just told me he's writing a book. Are you in touch with him at all? I'm truly looking forward to whatever tomorrow brings between the two sites.

Consider me deranged too though I'm not too sure what thd CDS is exactly.

Hi Tinoire!

I've been Nicely Nicely since the early days of the Elections Forum on DU. The worst that's happened is a reference to me as having "Clinton Derangement Syndrome," which was a backhanded compliment (on another forum).

These posters on PI (or will it be "Socialist Independent";) would ad a great deal I'm sure.



I just cross posted this from here to there.

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=94851&mesg_id=94851

Well, actually from ThePeopleVoice.org to here to PI ... whatever.

CDS is a pejorative term signifying that the individual labeled is irrationally obsessed with the many and varried faults of Hillary Clinton.

How about this 100 days. The seamless transition to the same old same old has been impressive. They've got it down.

You may have missed this (you and millions of others;) but it's about an issue that interested you in the past, a variation actually.

http://inteldaily.com/news/173/ARTICLE/10646/2009-05-09.html

That's a very nice site, btw.





Hi Junius!

I read your posts here- good stuff. I don't know you fom DU because, as I was telling TIA earlier, numbers bore me to tears but I firmly believe Bush stole both elections. TIA just told me he's writing a book. Are you in touch with him at all? I'm truly looking forward to whatever tomorrow brings between the two sites.

Consider me deranged too though I'm not too sure what thd CDS is exactly.

LOL. I am listening to Zola over and over again now. Great stuff. The pictures are great too - she sure is easy on the eyes.

I think Billie Holiday wrote the lyrics...

....

Speaking of which...

http://www.last.fm/listen/artist/Billie%2BHoliday/similarartists#pane=webRadioPlayer&station=%252Flisten%252Fartist%252FBillie%252BHoliday%252Fsimilarartists


Thanks. I didn't know Billie wrote those lyrics but then again, I never heard the song until this morning. Summertime is one of my favorite songs. Billie was the first artist I went crazy about. The first paychecks I got were spent buying every album of hers I could find. What a beautiful woman.

Thanks for this channel! I'd never heard Dinah Washington's "Mad About the Boy". The Obama phenomenon has me so depressed and angry that I'm retreating to music to keep from going overboard. Earlier today it was Frankie Lymon, Lewis Lymon and every variation of the Teenagers out there. Last week it was Simon Cowell's greatest discoveries. Thanks, I need this channel before he sends me over a cliff.

I just cross posted this from here to there.

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=94851&mesg_id=94851

Well, actually from VoicesofthePeople.org to here to PI ... whatever.

CDS is a pejorative term signifying that the individual labeled is irrationally obsessed with the many and varried faults of Hillary Clinton.

How about this 100 days. The seamless transition to the same old same old has been impressive. They've got it down.

You may have missed this (you and millions of others;) but it's about an issue that interested you in the past, a variation actually.

http://inteldaily.com/news/173/ARTICLE/10646/2009-05-09.html

That's a very nice site, btw.



Ah ok, so that's what CDS is. Good to know because apparently I'm a long time chronic sufferer.

The transition has been tragically seamless. Your article is a little too serious for me right now because I was up all night & day making sure my puppy didn't lick off or rupture the glue from his neutering but it's extremely interesting so I'll absorb it and comment in the morning.

Thanks for thinking it's a nice site. It is but it was a lot nicer when we were all working together, before I got stupid.


_________________________________________________

Goodnight Junius; goodnight everyone. Tomorrow I have an an unusually full day going to see Anna Baltzer and then Gilad Atzmon. They're going to be a welcome change from just hanging out with my puppies.

Thank you so much. Is it corny to say I love you guys?

Thanks. I didn't know Billie wrote those lyrics but then again, I never heard the song until this morning. Summertime is one of my favorite songs. Billie was the first artist I went crazy about. The first paychecks I got were spent buying every album of hers I could find. What a beautiful woman.

Thanks for this channel! I'd never heard Dinah Washington's "Mad About the Boy". The Obama phenomenon has me so depressed and angry that I'm retreating to music to keep from going overboard. Earlier today it was Frankie Lymon, Lewis Lymon and every variation of the Teenagers out there. Last week it was Simon Cowell's greatest discoveries. Thanks, I need this channel before he sends me over a cliff.


I know what you mean about retreating. I spent most of the day trying to remember and play melodies from the Southern Harmony shape note book. Haunting old folk hymns.

The collection has an interesting history -

The Southern Harmony, and Musical Companion was compiled by William "Singin' Billy" Walker and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1835. It contained 335 songs, went through several editions, and became possibly the most popular southern tunebook in the 19th century. In 1867 Walker claimed over 600,000 copies had been sold. In 1847, he enlarged the book by about forty pages. The present edition is a facsimile reprint of the 1854 printing.

William Walker was born in 1809 in South Carolina, and grew up near Spartanburg.

Although singing from the Southern Harmony is finding renewed interest at present, for many years it survived in one annual singing held each fourth Sunday in May at the Marshall County courthouse in Benton, Kentucky. It is called "The Big Singing". The Big Singing has been held since 1884, when it was organized by James Roberts Lemon, a newspaper owner and publisher in western Kentucky.

Kid actually was in a bad car wreck a while back - scared the crap out of us, but he is on the road back.

I remember about 2 years ago saying that a calamity was right on the horizon, a tidal wave of trouble - about 12 months away or so - and that it would then be a matter of "stand by to pick up survivors." The Obama zealots are still claiming that the ship is on course and sailing nicely, and that all we need to do it have total faith in the captain, and they deny the wreckage floating all around us. I guess we are all supposed to sit on the deck and admire him while the ship goes down.


Oh no!! I am so sorry to hear this but relieved Kid is ok. I thought the prior comment about him getting banged up was metaphorical. Kid, glad you're still around!

Mike? Please don't get me started about those bots. I've had to control myself at PI being an Admin and all but I hate those fucking assholes. Nobody can be that blind- not even willfully. When I hear them condoning the torture and execution of innocents who were picked up for our oil lines all my black heart thinks is "fine, let it be your kids next". I can't tell politely express how much I loathe them.


Ha, I didn't realize I had a reputation for being *that* hair-trigger

I agree that if Megan finds out about this you'll need to check for skid marks afterwards ;)

As for the car crash, I got some bumps for sure but nothing that won't heal which is incredibly lucky. Vitor Meira, a racer in the Indy 500, hit the wall at 190 and skidded on two wheels for several hundred feet or so and sustained similar injuries back injuries. Mine was a little more "mundane" (hit at high speed from behind, vehicle flipped, ejected) but I am "on the other side" at this point so can't complain..

On edit: Oh, and I'll just have a small wine spritzer thanks


Jeez....the minute Tin shows up here, out comes the booze.

Hey Tin I just wanted to say that I'm very pleased and impressed with your post here. What happened at PI sucked and it pretty much drove me away from posting on political forums.

I kept reading them regularly (especially the very brilliant assclowns here) but I couldn't shake the sensation that most 'left' forums were nothing but psyops designed to marginalize, isolate and shut down the voices of the riff-raff (that would be me).

Seeing Mike posting at PI, then Anax and Chlamor - I knew something was up. And I'm glad something's up.

This country is more fucked than it's ever been fucked before. A country in dire need of leadership is under the helm of a charismatic, charming, corporate rightwinger (marketed as a 'socialist' pffft), with more worldwide 'political capital' than any leader in my lifetime. Jeez! Merkel, Brown, even the fucking QUEEN fairly RAN to get their mugs in a photo op with this guy.

We are so fucked. Everyone tuned out after pulling the lever - now they're waiting for the Hope and Change to kick in. It's not going to happen. We need leadership from the brilliant assclowns and the riff-raff now more than ever.

I'm glad to see everyone coming together here.

(And many thanks to the rest of you for keeping this place going)

lol the spellcheck here suggested I replace 'psyops' with 'parsnips' I haven't had a parsnip in years, but everywhere I look, tv, internet, books, magazines, I see a mainstream mind-control opinion-generating parsnip for sure.

On edit: Oh, and I'll just have a small wine spritzer thanks


Jeez....the minute Tin shows up here, out comes the booze.

Hey Tin I just wanted to say that I'm very pleased and impressed with your post here. What happened at PI sucked and it pretty much drove me away from posting on political forums.

I kept reading them regularly (especially the very brilliant assclowns here) but I couldn't shake the sensation that most 'left' forums were nothing but psyops designed to marginalize, isolate and shut down the voices of the riff-raff (that would be me).

Seeing Mike posting at PI, then Anax and Chlamor - I knew something was up. And I'm glad something's up.

This country is more fucked than it's ever been fucked before. A country in dire need of leadership is under the helm of a charismatic, charming, corporate rightwinger (marketed as a 'socialist' pffft), with more worldwide 'political capital' than any leader in my lifetime. Jeez! Merkel, Brown, even the fucking QUEEN fairly RAN to get their mugs in a photo op with this guy.

We are so fucked. Everyone tuned out after pulling the lever - now they're waiting for the Hope and Change to kick in. It's not going to happen. We need leadership from the brilliant assclowns and the riff-raff now more than ever.

I'm glad to see everyone coming together here.

(And many thanks to the rest of you for keeping this place going)

lol the spellcheck here suggested I replace 'psyops' with 'parsnips' I haven't had a parsnip in years, but everywhere I look, tv, internet, books, magazines, I see a mainstream mind-control opinion-generating parsnip for sure.


Hey Runs... Long time no see.

It's a fookin' gatherin' of the tribes, I'm a tellin' ya.

Drive back on over and post some shit at one of these parsnips... duty calls and nothing is ever lost on these Internets.

Somebody's gotta do somethin' and if there ain't many bodies there are at least somebodies.

I can get behind this whole parsnips idea, I think. See how it all comes back to ag?

"I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a fight, so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever there's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there. I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad. I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready, and when the people are eatin' the stuff they raise and livin' in the houses they build - I'll be there, too."

Welcome Tinoire, I'm just a small somebody here who has to commend your courage; we all need to come together somehow. BTW I signed up at your site about a month ago, haven't posted much, BitterLittleFlower

Jeez....the minute Tin shows up here, out comes the booze.

Hey Tin I just wanted to say that I'm very pleased and impressed with your post here. What happened at PI sucked and it pretty much drove me away from posting on political forums.

I kept reading them regularly (especially the very brilliant assclowns here) but I couldn't shake the sensation that most 'left' forums were nothing but psyops designed to marginalize, isolate and shut down the voices of the riff-raff (that would be me).

Seeing Mike posting at PI, then Anax and Chlamor - I knew something was up. And I'm glad something's up.

This country is more fucked than it's ever been fucked before. A country in dire need of leadership is under the helm of a charismatic, charming, corporate rightwinger (marketed as a 'socialist' pffft), with more worldwide 'political capital' than any leader in my lifetime. Jeez! Merkel, Brown, even the fucking QUEEN fairly RAN to get their mugs in a photo op with this guy.

We are so fucked. Everyone tuned out after pulling the lever - now they're waiting for the Hope and Change to kick in. It's not going to happen. We need leadership from the brilliant assclowns and the riff-raff now more than ever.

I'm glad to see everyone coming together here.

(And many thanks to the rest of you for keeping this place going)

lol the spellcheck here suggested I replace 'psyops' with 'parsnips' I haven't had a parsnip in years, but everywhere I look, tv, internet, books, magazines, I see a mainstream mind-control opinion-generating parsnip for sure.


Hi! Big smile to see you again!

Yeah it sucked big time and I really wish I could undo it because we really had something very special. I'm very sorry it took me so long. I thought about it a few times and always found some reason not to follow through. After you guys left, some of my oomph left with you. And now, whatever oomph was left has been deflated by the coming of the great O came along with his magical bag of lucky charms. Its difficult to organize much resistance with all this superficial sweetness and light. Like you, I'm extremely worried at how rapidly the Right's agenda is humming along; this time with minimal opposition. My hard lesson was that this is no time for tea and crumpets and to forget about anyone who hasn't caught on by now.

I hope you'll get back to posting. You mentioned how much you'd learned at PI from the brilliant assclowns here. I learned a lot too but much of it is in retrospect because I didn't have time to digest many of the gems. I would like to start learning again too and stimulating people's minds.

Obama's brilliant. I loathe him more than I loathed Bush but he's good at what they're paying him to do- sell delusions. Who needs religion or opiates when they've got Obama?

We need leadership from these brilliant assclowns badly. I am very serious about doing whatever it takes to support that.

Gee it's so good to see you! Thank you for finding it in your heart to forgive me. We need your voice now more than ever.

Welcome Tinoire, I'm just a small somebody here who has to commend your courage; we all need to come together somehow. BTW I signed up at your site about a month ago, haven't posted much, BitterLittleFlower


Seriously, it's Chlamor and MBerst you need to commend. Chlamor once yelled at me that I had no better allies than the people I'd hurt and he was very right. Damn it. Just once, just once in 7 years, I would like for Chlamor to be wrong about something. Any old something will do. Even something as insignificant as getting a quote wrong.

I'm extremely bothered that we're so fragmented and that so many good people are stuck in gatekeeping forums like DU and KOS or lists like MoveOn. I hope you post more. I'll read you wherever you post because I loved you at DU. I had no idea you were ChoppedLiver! Thanks so much for this and for the way you've fought.

Hey Tin, how are ya?

I'm gobsmacked, no doubt about it. Brave post, you have my respect.

Runs too, sonofabitch.

The kitchen is screaming at me, be back later.

Just once, just once in 7 years, I would like for Chlamor to be wrong about something.


Heh. I would still maintain that we lose something of value when we see Lincoln as no different than Jackson and when we lump family farmers in with Monsanto. Of course, I am strongly biased on both subjects.

Nevertheless, nothing about Lincoln should be used as a justification or validation of the political system, or a "get out of jail free card" for whites. Lincoln didn't free the slaves, the slaves fought for and won their own damned freedom. The statues in Washington should be memorials to Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, and Frederick Douglass, not Lincoln, and if we have to have a statue for a white person, how about Angelina Grimke? The sloppy scholarship by Lerone Bennett Jr. saddened me, but it is true that white scholars have controlled and dominated the narrative about Emancipation and the Lincoln administration, and there is a pervasive racist bias there. Bennett's key points are true.

I'm extremely bothered that we're so fragmented and that so many good people are stuck in gatekeeping forums like DU and KOS or lists like MoveOn.


That warrants some discussion and consideration. It has been killing us.

I see a parallel with what has happened with Protestantism (and that dominates our culture). Some wag back in Luther's time prognosticated that the eventual and inevitable outcome of the movement toward individualized faith would be that we each would become a "church of one." In this country, Protestantism has endlessly fragmented and splintered, and I see the same dynamic in politics. If politics is going to be all about one's personal individual choices and values, the eventual and inevitable outcome would be that we each would become a political party of one.

Notice how people are always rejecting calls for consensus and solidarity on the basis of imagined conflicts with their "personal choices" and "personal values" - which are really just self-centered preferences and prejudices and feelings.

Hey Tin, how are ya?

I'm gobsmacked, no doubt about it. Brave post, you have my respect.

Runs too, sonofabitch.

The kitchen is screaming at me, be back later.


Hi BP! Really, all this talk about courage is making me blush. If I had any courage, I would have done this years ago.

I sent you an e-mail because I just saw you got a log in error at PI. I manually reset your password and updated your e-mail address for you. Please let me know if you have any problems getting in.

Now I'm running to the kitchen to frost a cake for a fundraiser lol

Welcome Tinoire, I'm just a small somebody here who has to commend your courage; we all need to come together somehow. BTW I signed up at your site about a month ago, haven't posted much, BitterLittleFlower


Seriously, it's Chlamor and MBerst you need to commend. Chlamor once yelled at me that I had no better allies than the people I'd hurt and he was very right. Damn it. Just once, just once in 7 years, I would like for Chlamor to be wrong about something. Any old something will do. Even something as insignificant as getting a quote wrong.

I'm extremely bothered that we're so fragmented and that so many good people are stuck in gatekeeping forums like DU and KOS or lists like MoveOn. I hope you post more. I'll read you wherever you post because I loved you at DU. I had no idea you were ChoppedLiver! Thanks so much for this and for the way you've fought.



Amen to commendations to Chlamor and MikeB, they have earned my eternal gratitude for what I've learned from them (along with several, if not all, others here). Again, commend them for any good posts from me, I had excellent teachers.

Its the people who are too afraid, or find it too painful, that I try to work on; the vast majority of those I know irl.
Thanks again. Mary F

Its the people who are too afraid, or find it too painful, that I try to work on; the vast majority of those I know irl.
Thanks again. Mary F


Tin and I are posting the music you need to get through all of that lol.

Let me tell you, since I met you baby, my whole life has changed.

All my friends tell me that I am not the same.

I hope you'll get back to posting.

I don't know.

Have you renounced satan (the rightwing Kucinich trolls)?

:P

I believe you and I disagreed on their intentions.

Just once, just once in 7 years, I would like for Chlamor to be wrong about something.


Heh. I would still maintain that we lose something of value when we see Lincoln as no different than Jackson and when we lump family farmers in with Monsanto. Of course, I am strongly biased on both subjects.

Nevertheless, nothing about Lincoln should be used as a justification or validation of the political system, or a "get out of jail free card" for whites. Lincoln didn't free the slaves, the slaves fought for and won their own damned freedom. The statues in Washington should be memorials to Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, and Frederick Douglass, not Lincoln, and if we have to have a statue for a white person, how about Angelina Grimke? The sloppy scholarship by Lerone Bennett Jr. saddened me, but it is true that white scholars have controlled and dominated the narrative about Emancipation and the Lincoln administration, and there is a pervasive racist bias there. Bennett's key points are true.




Hi Mike, I don't believe I've ever lumped farmers in with Monsanto but I've had a huge problem with Monsanto for a long time. The seed of my activism was some volunteer work with Jose Bove fighting against Monsanto. My fight started because cooking was my first love and I was appalled at the quality of food in US stores. After returning from Europe, even the potatoes didn't taste like potatoes to me. I was shocked and really pissed. Not to mention that I put on weight here without changing anything in my eating habits. Anyway, that's what started it all and I was very angry at how Monsanto & friends changed the agricultural landscape in this country. I hate genetic engineering with a passion.

Lincoln is very different than Jackson. I'm sorry that in my zeal, I attacked him unfairly. Not having an extensive US education, I'm not that knowledgeable about him but as a person of color, I've been resentful, since childhood, over implications that White people gave us this or that and the minimalization of our contributions (ie how US history erased the contributions of Haitians who came and bled for American Independence).

I'm not that familiar with Bennet other than having used him as a source for something I felt was true. Frankly, I dont think it's important if Lincoln used this or that word, I think what's important is that, as a leader, he supported & oversaw the abolition of slavery.

I'm sorry Mike. What you just wrote means a lot to me. I know I was overzealous in that discussion. Who is Angelina Grimke ? I'd google but I'm supposed to be frosting a cake.

I hope you'll get back to posting.

I don't know.

Have you renounced satan (the rightwing Kucinich trolls)?

:P

I believe you and I disagreed on their intentions.


I'm not sure which specific ones you're referring to.... Wait, some of those names are faintly coming back. I'm still not sure if they were R/W trolls but they were kids definitely out of place at PI. I have a vague recollection of thinking one or two of them were later on but I can't even remember their names. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt which was, in retrospect, pretty stupid.

I'm extremely bothered that we're so fragmented and that so many good people are stuck in gatekeeping forums like DU and KOS or lists like MoveOn.


That warrants some discussion and consideration. It has been killing us.

I see a parallel with what has happened with Protestantism (and that dominates our culture). Some wag back in Luther's time prognosticated that the eventual and inevitable outcome of the movement toward individualized faith would be that we each would become a "church of one." In this country, Protestantism has endlessly fragmented and splintered, and I see the same dynamic in politics. If politics is going to be all about one's personal individual choices and values, the eventual and inevitable outcome would be that we each would become a political party of one.

Notice how people are always rejecting calls for consensus and solidarity on the basis of imagined conflicts with their "personal choices" and "personal values" - which are really just self-centered preferences and prejudices and feelings.


Well if you have any ideas, just shoot. I think the key is doing what you guys do here which is empowering the members to run the place. I'm still hazy about how to best implement that. Our new software allows a zillion levels, from plain contributing member to almost Admin levels (almost because I don't think it's safe to have certain functions, ie delete forum, that accessible).

Notice how people are always rejecting calls for consensus and solidarity on the basis of imagined conflicts with their "personal choices" and "personal values" - which are really just self-centered preferences and prejudices and feelings.

Worth repeating and incidentally most of their calls FOR solidarity and consensus are crafted on the same absurd basis

No, I didn't think that you had lumped Monsanto in with farmers. I was mostly talking about the two issues that I still get into disagreements with people over, not necessarily with you. "Sore spots" as it were - at least in my memory.

The bland food - this is mostly a matter of the middle men rather than the farmers or the consumers. I used to think that Americans preferred good looking but bland food, or that it was easier to grow so the farmers had a motivation there. But now I know better. For a few years I would always carry samples of heirloom apple varieties with me when I traveled around, and universally people were amazed at the flavor and preferred them to blander fruit. As far as the farmers go, the demand for big beautiful bland fruit requires a lot of extra work on their part. But that demand is not really an accurate measure of the public's tastes. It is the people between the farmer and the consumer who are dictating prices, tastes, and making most of the money - 90 cents on the dollar.



Who is Angelina Grimke ? I'd google but I'm supposed to be frosting a cake.


Angelina Grimke Weld, abolitionist, and pioneer lecturer and author for woman’s rights, was the sister of Sarah Moore Grimke. Leaving Charleston, she became a Philadelphia abolitionist, joined the Philadelphia Female Anti-Slavery Society, and wrote an abolitionist pamphlet An Appeal to the Christian Women of the South (1836), which caused a stir. Taking up woman’s rights as well, Angelina wrote a series of letters on the subject in the abolitionist Liberator. Sarah and Angelina’s pioneering lectures and writing on abolition and woman’s rights inspired Lucy Stone, Lucretia Mott, and others to take up both causes.

From a prominent South Carolina family, she was one of 14 children of John Grimke. He fathered both white and African-American children, which made his daughters sensitive to the injustices of slavery. Angelina left Charleston, joined her sister in Philadelphia and followed her into the Quaker faith. Angelina held abolition meetings for women in New York city and, accompanied by her sister, lectured to “mixed” (men and women) audiences, shocking behavior in its day. Their lectures created a sensation that landed the sisters at the center of the woman’s rights debate, provoking a rebuke from ministers against their “unwomanly behavior.”

http://www.womenspeecharchive.org/women/profile/index.cfm?ProfileID=102

Sarah and Angelina Grimke eloquently fought the injustices of slavery, racism and sexism during the mid-19th century. As daughters of a prominent South Carolina judge and plantation owner, the Grimke sisters witnessed the suffering of slaves. Determined to speak out, they were eventually forced to move to the North, where they continued to appeal to northerners and southerners to work toward abolition. They also urged white northerners to end racial discrimination.

The Grimke sisters were pioneering women. Among the first female abolitionists, they were the first women to speak publicly against slavery, an important political topic. Faced with criticism from clergy and others that they were threatening "the female character," they continued their crusade. In 1838, Angelina became the first woman to address a legislative body when she spoke to the Massachusetts State Legislature on women's rights and abolition.

Active in the women's movement, they helped set the agenda later followed by Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Lucretia Mott and others, calling for equal educational opportunities and the vote. One historian said of Sarah's writings: "[They were] a milestone on the road to the Woman's Rights Convention at Seneca Falls" and "central to the feminist writings in the decades that followed." Sarah was one of the first to compare the restrictions on women and slaves, writing that "woman has no political existence . . . . She is only counted like the slaves of the south, to swell the number of lawmakers." After the Civil War, they continued to champion the causes of equality and women's rights.

Through their examples and their words, the Grimke sisters proved that women could affect the course of political events and have a far-reaching influence on society.

http://www.greatwomen.org/women.php?action=viewone&id=69

Its the people who are too afraid, or find it too painful, that I try to work on; the vast majority of those I know irl.
Thanks again. Mary F


Tin and I are posting the music you need to get through all of that lol.

Let me tell you, since I met you baby, my whole life has changed.

All my friends tell me that I am not the same.



Nice, Mike! thanks, true in so many ways here...

Done. http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=250

Let me guess, first candidate, the great O himself? Or maybe even me. I daresay I'd deserve it.

Thank you Anaxarchos


Let's start with the bunch from PopI... They were a lively bunch and there is always room for more.



Have they stopped drinking the Kool-Aid ?

Glad to see you again Tinoire.Welcome back.

...you guys would rightfully pillory me...


Kid usually handles all of the pillorying, but he seems to have lost his touch since he got banged up and they put him in a body cast.


Lol! Really, you know how people like to say "You owe me a new keyboard"? I kid you not, I I just got done replying to your kind PM, was listening to the Zola Taylor song I mentioned, read this and sprayed the monitor.

I could tell Kid lost his touch because the person I was expecting to hammer me the most was Kid. And also Megan whose pilloring I deserve for growning out her advice when she stuck to me regardless.



Wow Zola Taylor.
http://www8.plala.or.jp/kyoda/deep-soul/soul/platters-same.jpg

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I post here (and anywhere else these days) very very rarely but I'd personally prefer this place wasn't merged with PI unless I get the name of the poster who contacted and harassed my former boss telling him I was secretly a Liberal Party hack because I was evil enough not to fall in line behind every insane theory posited over there and worse called on the bullshit.

Had my boss not known me for a very long time that could have been very damaging to a relatively new union organiser at a time of the worst attack on unions my country had ever seen.

Only a couple of people there had access to my personal details, that and the sneaky changing of peoples passwords without actually banning them left a far too nasty Stalinist taste in my mouth to feel comfortable posting anywhere where the same people have any admin/modding powers.

Whatever DU''s (et al) faults no-one ever stalked me from there and threatened my livelihood because I dared to question their beliefs.

Sorry to piss in the love pool guys but that's my 2 cents




Who said anything about merging with PI? Tin wants to figuratively "return to the fold" which is OK but I thought that was the extent of things

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I post here (and anywhere else these days) very very rarely but I'd personally prefer this place wasn't merged with PI unless I get the name of the poster who contacted and harassed my former boss telling him I was secretly a Liberal Party hack because I was evil enough not to fall in line behind every insane theory posited over there and worse called on the bullshit.

Had my boss not known me for a very long time that could have been very damaging to a relatively new union organiser at a time of the worst attack on unions my country had ever seen.

Only a couple of people there had access to my personal details, that and the sneaky changing of peoples passwords without actually banning them left a far too nasty Stalinist taste in my mouth to feel comfortable posting anywhere where the same people have any admin/modding powers.

Whatever DU''s (et al) faults no-one ever stalked me from there and threatened my livelihood because I dared to question their beliefs.

Sorry to piss in the love pool guys but that's my 2 cents




Who said anything about merging with PI? Tin wants to figuratively "return to the fold" which is OK but I thought that was the extent of things


Tin did make an offhand suggestion which might be understood as that. Premature, I think. However we gotta get better at uniting, alliance building.....

Who said anything about merging with PI? Tin wants to figuratively "return to the fold" which is OK but I thought that was the extent of things


Actually, I did. I am that sincere about working together that I offered that & co-Adminship as an example of how far I would go. I would even step aside if that's what it took.

When I banned you guys for supporting Mike's defense of a fellow poster, I totally wrong and should have been more transparent about why I was personally pissed at some things I'd found. Everything happened in such a rush and I hadn't been sleeping for days. What I should have done was just sent Mike some links and said "please Mike, here's what has me so riled up and is unfortunately coinciding with my hare-brained proposal that PI support Kucinich". I had no idea that a spur of the moment idea I tossed off RichM while I was driving to work would start such a firestorm.

Anyway, I fucked up. I should have kept it Chlamor-style and posted the links asking that poster why he was cheering the Israelis during a Rafah slaughter. I couldn't because it was a mod from DU who'd sent me those links saying "We're always accused of banning people unfairly but sometimes we do have a reason". For weeks I ignored that e-mail because I resented, even a well-meaning mod, interfering with PI but one day I did look at them and they really pained me.

Thats when all hell broke loose over my silly idea to have PI endorse Kucinich. It was for antiwar reasons, building our membership with committed activists and not much more.

If none of that had happened, you guys would all be the strongest voices at PI right now. I'm just trying to find a way to roll the clock back as clumsily as we can.

I also expected you all to still be so incredibly pissed at me that that was the only way I could show how sincere I was. The offer still stands. I'm not asking for it but I put it on the table in case your terms for working together were getting me out of the Admin business. It's not like many of my decisions have been that great at it but the work, the sincerity have always been there.

If "return to the fold" satisfies you, it satisfies me but I think what you're building here is great in a slower kind of way. I also don't see the need to scatter resources (especially talented resources like dedicated programmers which PI has been sorely in need of for years).

Basically, I came crawling because I missed you guys, I'm scared shitless about where Obama is headed and I see no strength in disunity. Especially when that disunity was over a sincere misundertanding and stupid shit. No need to merge, I just offered that on a silver platter surrounded by watrecress.

Have they stopped drinking the Kool-Aid ?

Glad to see you again Tinoire.Welcome back.


For our active posters yes. I drank more kool-aid than they did because I really did allow myself to hope for a few short weeks. That was before the in-your-face FISA betrayal.

Thanks. It feels really good not to be feuding anymore. Really, really good.

If I came here and posted my long overdue mea culpa, it's because these people are my ideological allies and mentors. I want to work with them to bring the US Left together and provide some intellectual leadership on the web to change things.

The leadership is sorely lacking and needed. I'm sure there are many other pretty average folks like myself who were drawn back into organized politics - or into it the first time - with the Obama campaign nonsense. By the time we got to FISA I was sincerely questioning what I had gotten involved in. Thankfully at that time I met Mike, Chlamor and BP at OET and decided to read their stuff with an open mind. Then I found Anax and Kid at PI. Now I know too much to walk away. Building up PI is easier because of the membership already existing there, but I'd hate to lose the repository from PI/SI. Whether on separate or combined sites, however, all of you working together looks like a very good thing from my relatively new vantage point.

No, I didn't think that you had lumped Monsanto in with farmers. I was mostly talking about the two issues that I still get into disagreements with people over, not necessarily with you. "Sore spots" as it were - at least in my memory.

The bland food - this is mostly a matter of the middle men rather than the farmers or the consumers. I used to think that Americans preferred good looking but bland food, or that it was easier to grow so the farmers had a motivation there. But now I know better. For a few years I would always carry samples of heirloom apple varieties with me when I traveled around, and universally people were amazed at the flavor and preferred them to blander fruit. As far as the farmers go, the demand for big beautiful bland fruit requires a lot of extra work on their part. But that demand is not really an accurate measure of the public's tastes. It is the people between the farmer and the consumer who are dictating prices, tastes, and making most of the money - 90 cents on the dollar.



Who is Angelina Grimke ? I'd google but I'm supposed to be frosting a cake.


Angelina Grimke Weld, abolitionist, and pioneer lecturer and author for woman’s rights, was the sister of Sarah Moore Grimke. Leaving Charleston, she became a Philadelphia abolitionist, joined the Philadelphia Female Anti-Slavery Society, and wrote an abolitionist pamphlet An Appeal to the Christian Women of the South (1836), which caused a stir. Taking up woman’s rights as well, Angelina wrote a series of letters on the subject in the abolitionist Liberator. Sarah and Angelina’s pioneering lectures and writing on abolition and woman’s rights inspired Lucy Stone, Lucretia Mott, and others to take up both causes.

From a prominent South Carolina family, she was one of 14 children of John Grimke. He fathered both white and African-American children, which made his daughters sensitive to the injustices of slavery. Angelina left Charleston, joined her sister in Philadelphia and followed her into the Quaker faith. Angelina held abolition meetings for women in New York city and, accompanied by her sister, lectured to “mixed” (men and women) audiences, shocking behavior in its day. Their lectures created a sensation that landed the sisters at the center of the woman’s rights debate, provoking a rebuke from ministers against their “unwomanly behavior.”

http://www.womenspeecharchive.org/women/profile/index.cfm?ProfileID=102

Sarah and Angelina Grimke eloquently fought the injustices of slavery, racism and sexism during the mid-19th century. As daughters of a prominent South Carolina judge and plantation owner, the Grimke sisters witnessed the suffering of slaves. Determined to speak out, they were eventually forced to move to the North, where they continued to appeal to northerners and southerners to work toward abolition. They also urged white northerners to end racial discrimination.

The Grimke sisters were pioneering women. Among the first female abolitionists, they were the first women to speak publicly against slavery, an important political topic. Faced with criticism from clergy and others that they were threatening "the female character," they continued their crusade. In 1838, Angelina became the first woman to address a legislative body when she spoke to the Massachusetts State Legislature on women's rights and abolition.

Active in the women's movement, they helped set the agenda later followed by Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Lucretia Mott and others, calling for equal educational opportunities and the vote. One historian said of Sarah's writings: "[They were] a milestone on the road to the Woman's Rights Convention at Seneca Falls" and "central to the feminist writings in the decades that followed." Sarah was one of the first to compare the restrictions on women and slaves, writing that "woman has no political existence . . . . She is only counted like the slaves of the south, to swell the number of lawmakers." After the Civil War, they continued to champion the causes of equality and women's rights.

Through their examples and their words, the Grimke sisters proved that women could affect the course of political events and have a far-reaching influence on society.

http://www.greatwomen.org/women.php?action=viewone&id=69


Thanks for Grimke. I had no idea. I knew our Lincoln discussion kind of rankled you because I lurked here. I'm truly sorry. I had no idea and in retrospect went overboard trying to score an insignificant point.

Re the farmers, this is why I just go to Farmers' Markets now. They need to be financiallysupported when they give us apples that taste like apples. I'm not mad at the farmers, not even that mad at the greedy people at Monsanto. I'm angriest at the marketers, the broken educational system that doesn't encourage critical thought and the investors out to make a quick buck.

Wow Zola Taylor.
http://www8.plala.or.jp/kyoda/deep-soul/soul/platters-same.jpg


Yeah, here's the song Mike posted the lyrics to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll4XTrdvU5M

I love the song and can't believe it took so long to hear this one. What's funny is that when I listen to it two days later, I want to dedicate it to the Liberals in the DP.

... Until the real thing comes along...

Zola fan?

The leadership is sorely lacking and needed. I'm sure there are many other pretty average folks like myself who were drawn back into organized politics - or into it the first time - with the Obama campaign nonsense. By the time we got to FISA I was sincerely questioning what I had gotten involved in. Thankfully at that time I met Mike, Chlamor and BP at OET and decided to read their stuff with an open mind. Then I found Anax and Kid at PI. Now I know too much to walk away. Building up PI is easier because of the membership already existing there, but I'd hate to lose the repository from PI/SI. Whether on separate or combined sites, however, all of you working together looks like a very good thing from my relatively new vantage point.


Too much knowledge personally hurts but you can't walk away and pretend anymore after that. I understand what you mean about the repository, I wouldn't want to lose that either and don't think you should.

Whether on separate or combined sites, however, all of you working together looks like a very good thing from my relatively new vantage point.

I will do whatever people here think best.

For months we've wanted to have a sorts of Magisterium running the show at PI but I am technically incapable of programming such a thing. A year ago, I bought VB bulletin which permits that and transferred all of PI to it on a new server but, because of a small technical problem which Katzenjammer recently solved for us, never completed the transition.

Our country is so fucked up right now that whatever these guys think is best, I'm willing to do it- even if it means totally stepping out of the Admin picture and just being a normal poster (a liberating status I've really missed). Frankly, I hate being an Admin, especially THE Admin. I'd rather be out slaying dragons with Chlamor again like we used to do at DU under his 501 reincarnations.

Heh, yeah we're still doing that. Would love your help :) I can only take so much of that place.

Tin, no offense, but from the looks of things you are still dragging around a zoo behind you everywhere you go.

PI is still full of space cadets, and your suggestion would just be a merger into one "big tent" insane asylum.

Seriously, lets focus on something "simple" like cutting the shit (like what the fuck is up with Djinn Reality Bender??).

Incidentally, that includes all of the recriminations. There were enough drama queens to go around then, so lets flush it out of our system NOW before we have a relapse.

If a member says someone dropped a dime on her, then someone did as far as I am concerned. We need her voice here. That is not petty drama - I had someone fucking around with my personal life at one time. No laughing matter.

...like what the fuck is up with Djinn Reality Bender??).


If Djinn says someone dropped a dime on her, then someone did as far as I am concerned. We need her voice here. That is not petty drama - I had someone fucking around with my personal life at one time. No laughing matter.


Not laughing, and not insinuating she wasn't harrassed IRL. But the whole thing sounds like a Jerry Springer outtake and, you have to admit that given the Bender has no evidence on who was actually going after her, the entire exchance was pretty out there.

And, besides, its not that one incident, that type of circus seems to follow on Tins heels constantly. The SF Municipal Zoo needs to do more cage-checks and work on their "retention" policies. Megan's the only monkey we need :)

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WTF? ??? ??? Am I missing something here? Could someone tell me what went on ? Whic PI was this at,and who were you over there ?

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Wow Zola Taylor.
http://www8.plala.or.jp/kyoda/deep-soul/soul/platters-same.jpg


Yeah, here's the song Mike posted the lyrics to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll4XTrdvU5M

I love the song and can't believe it took so long to hear this one. What's funny is that when I listen to it two days later, I want to dedicate it to the Liberals in the DP.

... Until the real thing comes along...

Zola fan?



Lifelong,as in starting at about age four,fan of "50s" R&B.I have quite a lot of very pricey 45s, like The Five Chances,and The Orchids on Parrot.I never spent the big bucks on them,but had lots and lots of luck at flea markets and thrift stores.


I wish there was a better clip of this,start at 2:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tstTqw6Rvc

Yes she wrote it.Answer record to "Shake Rattle,and Roll".I have a number of interesting Platters pieces,including a Spanish Odeon issue of the Federal EP,and this great unique late 50s Mexican Orfeon Lp,with this gorgeous still from "Rock Around The Clock" (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ycxi_the-platters-the-great-pretender_music) on the cover.

Two more great sites for you:
http://doo-wop.blogg.org/
http://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/previous.htm

Warning second one shrinks your browser window.

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I'll start out with a public apology to both Mikes and to Rusty. First one to MBerst for not talking with him offline about the the events a few years ago and and not realizing how harsh and unfair I was to toss him off the forum.

The second one is to fucking Chlamor who, it galls me to say, hasn't been wrong about anything since I've known him.

The third one is to Illiterate President who loyally stuck to PI until I got pissed at his UteroFascist post and his relentless fighting with certain people who, in hindsight, I must admit, had absolutely no place at PI.

I'm sorry. I was new at this, exhausted from a 60/hr/week job and not sleeping because I'd spend hours just trying to figure out some stupid line of code.

Well here goes guys. You're all as pig-headed as I am but I give in because I was wrong. Not to mention that I have missed you.

During normal times, I could live with the knowledge that I was wrong and leave it at that but there's too much going on right now, that people need to resist, so I can't leave it as a mental mea culpa.

I would like to work together again.

If you're interested, just let me know your terms. If it means merging the two forums and co_Admining, I'm game. I'm willing to go that far.

I'm going to be leaving the country within a few months and am going to transition PI to VBulletin which allows for a more member-driven administration. Everything's in place for that but I still need to work out a few bugs.

The Annointed one has exceeded my wildest predictions and scared the shit out of me. I'd like to discuss working together again and making a difference while we still can.

Thank you Mike for activating my account here.


Accepted, but I am not and do not have the time to waste reading this whole thread which - by the last few posts - appears to be a rehash of old arguments.

To Tinoire dropping in, for however long, at this site I can only say what I have said and had confirmed many times before: The future is always weirder than the movies...

Cheers, all.

Just off a three week stint as a federal juror (and witness to horrible miscarriage of justice) and a very sudden out of town trip the following day, I am as usual just passing through. One of these days I'll say something. I swear.

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Lifelong,as in starting at about age four,fan of "50s" R&B.I have quite a lot of very pricey 45s, like The Five Chances,and The Orchids on Parrot.I never spent the big bucks on them,but had lots and lots of luck at flea markets and thrift stores.


I wish there was a better clip of this,start at 2:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tstTqw6Rvc

Yes she wrote it.Answer record to "Shake Rattle,and Roll".I have a number of interesting Platters pieces,including a Spanish Odeon issue of the Federal EP,and this great unique late 50s Mexican Orfeon Lp,with this gorgeous still from "Rock Around The Clock" (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ycxi_the-platters-the-great-pretender_music) on the cover.

Two more great sites for you:
http://doo-wop.blogg.org/
http://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/previous.htm

Warning second one shrinks your browser window.



Thanks! That was great. I've added it to my online collection.

Here's another one I just discovered. It was Lymon's last and I love how his voice matured here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yo4UE-p864

Youtube is becoming my favorite bookmark these days. Thanks again for sharing.

One more thing:

RB: I have had a not-too-serious but worth noting crush on you since the early PI days. You are quite possibly the only person - especially female - who is as openly, unrepentantly coarse as I am.

I'll take no position on your quarrel here for want (or rather, non-want) of actual evidence. But I gotta say that anytime someone just jumps out there with "fucking liar" like you do, I get all warm and fuzzy inside.

Pissing match or not, the reunion that seems to be forming here of late is truly inspiring and a debt of appreciation I think we all owe to the perseverance and prescience of Mr. Mike. I may have to actually take interest again despite being far more busy than I was back in the day, if only so I too can get some personal pearls of what would almost certainly be much-deserved raft-o-shit from RB.

I'll start out with a public apology to both Mikes and to Rusty. First one to MBerst for not talking with him offline about the the events a few years ago and and not realizing how harsh and unfair I was to toss him off the forum.

The second one is to fucking Chlamor who, it galls me to say, hasn't been wrong about anything since I've known him.

The third one is to Illiterate President who loyally stuck to PI until I got pissed at his UteroFascist post and his relentless fighting with certain people who, in hindsight, I must admit, had absolutely no place at PI.

I'm sorry. I was new at this, exhausted from a 60/hr/week job and not sleeping because I'd spend hours just trying to figure out some stupid line of code.

Well here goes guys. You're all as pig-headed as I am but I give in because I was wrong. Not to mention that I have missed you.

During normal times, I could live with the knowledge that I was wrong and leave it at that but there's too much going on right now, that people need to resist, so I can't leave it as a mental mea culpa.

I would like to work together again.

If you're interested, just let me know your terms. If it means merging the two forums and co_Admining, I'm game. I'm willing to go that far.

I'm going to be leaving the country within a few months and am going to transition PI to VBulletin which allows for a more member-driven administration. Everything's in place for that but I still need to work out a few bugs.

The Annointed one has exceeded my wildest predictions and scared the shit out of me. I'd like to discuss working together again and making a difference while we still can.

Thank you Mike for activating my account here.


Accepted, but I am not and do not have the time to waste reading this whole thread which - by the last few posts - appears to be a rehash of old arguments.

To Tinoire dropping in, for however long, at this site I can only say what I have said and had confirmed many times before: The future is always weirder than the movies...

Cheers, all.

Just off a three week stint as a federal juror (and witness to horrible miscarriage of justice) and a very sudden out of town trip the following day, I am as usual just passing through. One of these days I'll say something. I swear.


Thank you Rusty. I'm glad you dropped in and posted that. I don't remember that saying but like it- don't be surprised if I use it sometime. I hope all is well with you. Take care.

If we are going to be allies there needs to be trust. Matters of trust are not petty, are not melodrama, and won't go away magically on their own. The fuzzy, sloppy fog of "whatever, let's get to the important stuff," where trust and veracity are seen as minor and irrelevant or as merely personal matters, will always leave an opening for those who would badger and discredit leftists.

If we are going to be allies there needs to be trust. Matters of trust are not petty, are not melodrama, and won't go away magically on their own. The fuzzy, sloppy fog of "whatever, let's get to the important stuff," where trust and veracity are seen as minor and irrelevant or as merely personal matters, will always leave an opening for those who would badger and discredit leftists.


Thanks for this Mike, good points.

So, how is this to be resolved?

It would be wrong on several levels to just let it side down the memory hole.

If there cannot be trust then it's worse than useless.

So, how is this to be resolved?

It would be wrong on several levels to just let it side down the memory hole.

If there cannot be trust then it's worse than useless.


Sorry if I just missed it, but what are we talking about resolving?

Whats the "trust" issue?

So, how is this to be resolved?

It would be wrong on several levels to just let it side down the memory hole.

If there cannot be trust then it's worse than useless.


Sorry if I just missed it, but what are we talking about resolving?

Whats the "trust" issue?


Welll, seems we got one member accusing another of some pretty serious shit.. I don't think this is the sort of thing to be swept under the rug. Particularly if we are going to attempt to 'do something'.(no, I don't know what that would be) I think that requires trust.

I think it more likely that someone is telling stories than this being a mere misunderstanding.

So, how is this to be resolved?

It would be wrong on several levels to just let it side down the memory hole.

If there cannot be trust then it's worse than useless.


Sorry if I just missed it, but what are we talking about resolving?

Whats the "trust" issue?


Welll, seems we got one member accusing another of some pretty serious shit.. I don't think this is the sort of thing to be swept under the rug. Particularly if we are going to attempt to 'do something'.(no, I don't know what that would be) I think that requires trust.

I think it more likely that someone is telling stories than this being a mere misunderstanding.


would appear so, how to out the truth here? How to keep/create the trust?

So, how is this to be resolved?

It would be wrong on several levels to just let it side down the memory hole.

If there cannot be trust then it's worse than useless.


Sorry if I just missed it, but what are we talking about resolving?

Whats the "trust" issue?


Welll, seems we got one member accusing another of some pretty serious shit.. I don't think this is the sort of thing to be swept under the rug. Particularly if we are going to attempt to 'do something'.(no, I don't know what that would be) I think that requires trust.

I think it more likely that someone is telling stories than this being a mere misunderstanding.


would appear so, how to out the truth here? How to keep/create the trust?


Mary, its not our obligation or responsibility to resolve stupid problems like that (yeah, yeah I'm being "insensitive"). In fact its not on our plate to entertain that shit at all. Either the "members" in question clean it up themselves or they take it elsewhere. Whether they contribute here is completely separate.

Otherwise, the "trust" issue is moot because the only thing you can trust in is different circus same clowns.

Mary, its not our obligation or responsibility to resolve stupid problems like that (yeah, yeah I'm being "insensitive"). In fact its not on our plate to entertain that shit at all. Either the "members" in question clean it up themselves or they take it elsewhere. Whether they contribute here is completely separate.

Otherwise, the "trust" issue is moot because the only thing you can trust in is different circus same clowns.



Give it a rest kid.

Welll, seems we got one member accusing another of some pretty serious shit.. I don't think this is the sort of thing to be swept under the rug. Particularly if we are going to attempt to 'do something'.(no, I don't know what that would be) I think that requires trust.

I think it more likely that someone is telling stories than this being a mere misunderstanding.


I really hope I don't have to spend more time & energy on this because it's not that important to me in a realistic take it or leave it way.

When I gave Chlamor and Mike Berst my home phone number in an age of caller ID- that was trust.
I'm not sure if Rusty had it but I called him on the phone several times. That was trust.

When I gave Megan the keys to PI and also to our account on a tracking system which had my real name, address and credit card information for monthly payments, that was trust. The same goes for RichM who had even more information because he had the server log-in where I had of alternate credit cards & jpg of picture ID stored for payments. RichM even came to my home for a fun evening.

When I flew in to DC to spend 2 days staying in a hotel for a protest with Rusty, Chlamor, Klijdehahl and Megan- that was even more trust. Giving a radio interview in Rusty and Chlamor's room leaving my purse and other knick knacks in the room I shared with Megan, where they were all hanging out waiting, that too was trust. Especially since this was after the falling out over MBerst when we all could have so easily fallen into mistrust.

I trusted them completely (still do) and up until now have never had to think about 'proving' myself because of this bizarre accusation, an accusation as bizarre as the accusation that while we were all in D.C., I slept with Paul Wolfowitz (that one is courtesy of the Likudniks at PSU) which would have made it a fivesome since we remained together the entire time, in various configurations.

One of you knows me from over 10,000 substantive posts at DU- that would be Chlamor who I've known through about 10 DU reincarnations and fought, side by side with over issues like Palestine, Darfur, Kosovo, Cuba, hunger, water, GMOs, etc... The rest of you know me less and I didn't really get to know most of yyou until PI even though I noticed posts from people like Blindpig at DU.

When I got so sick of DU for their complicity and also for banning all my friends, I decided to set up a site. Everyone told me I was nuts, even RichM who I knew from the DU/SF protest scene. I knew nothing about websites and it took me over 9 months to do it because I believed in creating a place where people wouldn't be tossed out just for saying that capitalism and its fruits were so fucked up or that Darfur was a sham.

To make a long story shorter, I'm not in this for the drama and dare anyone to tell me that dedicating my time, labor and finances means I should spend my energy defending vindictive accusations.

I just came to make a simple, long-overdue apology to 3 people with whom I had a a past difference because I didn't handle an administrative matter properly. The fact that IP stuck to PI, still positively contributing, that Chlamor kept challenging people with truth despite having his account turned off, and that MBerst/Two Americas came back years later made me realize they really cared about where this country was heading. That's all I care about right now- where this country is heading and helping people think so they can wake the fuck up.

An apology to three people, make that 4 with Megan who got torn over trying to be loyal to bickering friends, is all I came to make- not get reentangled in some bizarre drama with someone halfway around the world.

Mary, its not our obligation or responsibility to resolve stupid problems like that (yeah, yeah I'm being "insensitive"). In fact its not on our plate to entertain that shit at all. Either the "members" in question clean it up themselves or they take it elsewhere. Whether they contribute here is completely separate.

Otherwise, the "trust" issue is moot because the only thing you can trust in is different circus same clowns.



Give it a rest kid.


I was teasing on that part, I'm sure Bender really was cyber-stalked and I'm sure she feels violated and angry. Hard to establish a tone solely in text. But, regardless, why is this even remotely an issue we need a thread about "trust" to talk? It doesn't even make sense.

Time for the sideshow to roll into some other town

Time for the sideshow to roll into some other town


Not until we find out if all four of them slept with Wolfowitz




I don't think we saw all the photos...

Time for the sideshow to roll into some other town


Not until we find out if all four of them slept with Wolfowitz

I don't think we saw all the photos...


Whoops, make that a sixsome! There were 5 of us.

Well, good, finally this thread is getting interesting. As long as none of you slept with Cheney I think I can forgive you all.

(... reference to a member edited out) I'm kind of with Kid though on how much we all have to be involved in hashing it out... seems to be pretty much an issue between two people who could handle it via pm. I doubt anything we say is really going to help, they'll either work it out eventually or choose to avoid each other. I can completely understand Tin's desire to work with as many like-minded people as possible. Old wounds can certainly be mended - hell, even PH has my personal email now.

In the meantime we still have separate sites which gives everyone some space. It sure is good to see the PI threads get active with stuff that no one is able to say at DU. It looks like there's quite an audience for it. The cheerleading Obamabots aren't doing very well with their assimilation. That gives me hope for the future.

I won't really apologize for bringing this up again, and I'm not that attached to the actual issue as I'm barely acquainted with (the members.) However, it seems that someone fucking with someone else's life is something we should all be concerned about and have out, its not going to go away, if you put a bandaid on a dirty cut its just gonna fester and get infected, and may infect others...just saying...

If we are going to be allies there needs to be trust. Matters of trust are not petty, are not melodrama, and won't go away magically on their own. The fuzzy, sloppy fog of "whatever, let's get to the important stuff," where trust and veracity are seen as minor and irrelevant or as merely personal matters, will always leave an opening for those who would badger and discredit leftists.

I don't think we're quite at that point yet,Mike.I think a sizable amount of people were bamboozled by Obama,and are still smarting from how he betrayed them.These are people who,for the first time in their lives,realize electoral politics may not be the solution to everything,that you cannot vote yourself a revolution.They certainly aren't ready to sit down,and strategize what the important stuff should be right now.

What up y'all?

LOL.

Thank god I drank so much scotch that night in DC I don't remember the wolfowitz orgy. How do you people live with yourselves?
:P

It's good to see everyone here. Really and truly. Haven't read this whole thread yet and I am ridiculously busy right now. I popped in here with the hope of reading about Iranian elections, and look what I found...

Like rusty, one of these days I'll say something, I swear.

I'm glad we don't have a group hug smilie or I'd embarrass myself by posting it. Ha ha ha ha ha


eta: Now I'm reading the thread.

I have parsnips growing in my front yard. Coincidence?

As for the booze, I'll have a pilsner.

As for Reality Bender, wow, forget the pilsner, make it a scotch

I don't think we're quite at that point yet,Mike.I think a sizable amount of people were bamboozled by Obama,and are still smarting from how he betrayed them.These are people who,for the first time in their lives,realize electoral politics may not be the solution to everything,that you cannot vote yourself a revolution.They certainly aren't ready to sit down,and strategize what the important stuff should be right now.


Hey, far be it from me to be the fart in the crowded room.

My new mantras are "it's all good" and "it is what it is."

So long as we have hope and can put aside the bitter feuds from the past so we can move forward, and create a better future for ALL Americans, I am one happy camper let me tell you. I believe in change.

What up y'all?

LOL.

Thank god I drank so much scotch that night in DC I don't remember the wolfowitz orgy. How do you people live with yourselves?



How do you think *I* feel..theres a hot sweaty night I want back

What up y'all?

LOL.

Thank god I drank so much scotch that night in DC I don't remember the wolfowitz orgy. How do you people live with yourselves?
:P

It's good to see everyone here. Really and truly. Haven't read this whole thread yet and I am ridiculously busy right now. I popped in here with the hope of reading about Iranian elections, and look what I found...

Like rusty, one of these days I'll say something, I swear.

I'm glad we don't have a group hug smilie or I'd embarrass myself by posting it. Ha ha ha ha ha


eta: Now I'm reading the thread.

I have parsnips growing in my front yard. Coincidence?

As for the booze, I'll have a pilsner.

As for Reality Bender, wow, forget the pilsner, make it a scotch


Since there's no hug poster here, let me just give you one the old fashioned way- :hug:. I've missed you immensely.

Parsnips on the front porch? I'm impressed. This year my garden is so pitiful I'm not sure I should even waste anymore water on most of it. I have new... "help" you see...

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/Cedric/Phnixou/ourforeverhome_sm.jpg

The garden and couch are pretty much destroyed but what's an old beat up 15 year old, a few pillows, and baskets compared to the slobbering love of 2 rescues? I never could stand that couch anyway but I got it for free so no complaints. I got the blonde puppy as a 9 week-old rescue a month after Phoenix died and the collie is a one year old rescue who's known nothing but abuse. That little demon puppy from hell (Phnixou) just got fixed 10 days ago so I'm all smiles watching the testoserone fade away.

How's your beautiful dog doing?

Deleted due to personal picture ... as long as SLAD sees fit to post my writings all over the internet with red crayon I have no desire to have my daughter in her sights.

He is a little collie/lab mix and is already my six year old's best friend, and ignores the now 2-yr old. He is a great addition to our family.


Absolutely adorable! I can't imagine life without dogs now (former cat-only lover); they really are our best friends. Your six-year old is so cute in that pic! How old is the dog? He's the perfect size for her. I wish mine had stopped growing at 6 months lol.

Well, unfortunately the puppy is sick now, but we're hoping he will pull through. The lady at the rescue took him back because he got sick on his 4th day with us, and didn't seem to be responding to the initial antiobiotics I got at our Vet. He has already had 3 rounds of vaccinations, but she is worried because one of her other dogs has distemper. So, she is trying to nurse him through & will bring him back if he does ok. I was grateful because I don't have all the equipment (syringes for force feeding etc...) and days at the Vet can run into thousands of dollars. So, we'll see how it comes out. He's a very sweet little thing, nearly 5 mos. old, and is very good with my 2-yr old as well. Your dogs are great - the larger one looks like a border collie. They are almost always rambunctious (and quite smart).

ETA - puppy had parvo, mild case, discharged today, and is back home where he belongs. the kids were so happy (we all ran in circles in the back yard... guess you had to be there...). Anyway, now I can focus again. :)

OK, Tin what the hell

My account on Prog Indy is deactivated?? Because I didn't get along with leftchicK? I guess she won't read this but I just scratched my crotch with her in mind

She said you're "on hold" until she talks to Tin. It's like Mike said... lots of passive aggressive bs going on over there right now. We went through it all on OET and it hurt my head. I'm sure Mike has seen it on other sites as well. Maybe you'd fit in better if you bought a prius. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/JacobPreus.jpg/240px-JacobPreus.jpg
Jacob Aall Ottesen Preus (August 28, 1883 – May 24, 1961) was an American politician, born in Columbia County, Wisconsin. He served as the state auditor for Minnesota from January 5, 1915 to January 5, 1921 and as the 20th Governor of Minnesota from January 5, 1921 to January 6, 1925. He was a Republican. He was a 1903 graduate of Luther College in Decorah, Iowa, where his extended family has had a key role in the development, governance, and academic life of the college-community since its founding in 1862.

When Preus first ran for governor in 1920, he adamantly opposed the Farmer-Labor Party, a coalition of discontented farmers and laborers who had formed a new political organization. The party, he declaimed, represented "socialism - a political cult that would destroy the principles of private property, our religion, and our homes."

Just another fucking reactionary (JAFR).

OK, Tin what the hell

My account on Prog Indy is deactivated?? Because I didn't get along with leftchicK? I guess she won't read this but I just scratched my crotch with her in mind


Fuckin' barbarians....

http://www.genreonline.net/Genre_files/Barbarians%20026.jpg

Hey Tin just to let you know straight up as long as Kid's account is on hold I will do nothing but defend him which will mean that others will be at the end of my sword.

No mercy.

You got some problems over there and one of them is an insulting mod- leftchick- who then has the audacity to tell me to keep cool after her insults and says nothing to others, who are consistently insulting folks, except that she sympathizes with them.

Same old pattern where those who were challenged intellectually began the slurs and then those of us who speak more directly slapped 'em back and we were the heavies because we didn't take their crap and were straightforward with our language.

I'll fuckin' point it out in detail and the sequence as well to make it crystal clear. Got the receipts.

All those passive/aggressive insults okay but a resulting direct hit to the jaw a little to "uncivil" for the "New Thought" crowd? Fuck that. Get real here.

Want to make sure we get Mike's post in here;

On the road, dropped in for a quick look and to make a comment or three.

"Some people need to disappear." That says it all, doesn't it?

When did PI become so prissified and move so far to the right?

Unbelievable. The members were invited back. That is why there are a bunch of "new" people. They were the core of PI at one time, the most active members. At that time there was a rating system here, and there were many, many more members and 100 times as much activity. The ones you want to disappear were the most highly rated members - by the other members. They are writing the same things now that they did then, with a much better reception back then - overwhelmingly favorable. But now they are in violation of the true believer doctrine of the PI cult, as it has evolved apparently, and it must have evolved mostly by running off or boring to tears or badgering the rest of the members until they left or stopped posting.

Now they are back, and have generated more interest and discussion than PI has seen in months. Their arguments are crushing some of the other arguments here, by force of logic and nothing else. Too bad if that upsets the apple cart for some who are intolerant of a free and open discussion, and who want to have a controlled setting where they can push their theories and ideas without fear of contradiction.

Then we have the Leave it to Beaver approach to "managing" political discussion - we must all be gentrified and upper middle class in our sensibilities and decorum and modulated language. Of course, all sorts so rude and hostile language can be used if aimed at the "right" targets - fuck Bush (or Obama) is fine, fuck liberals is not. This is a ruse, a dishonest way to run off those who express opinions people do not like, opinions they do not agree with, and cannot counter, and it has nothing to do with "good behavior." That is the perennial argument of the reactionaries - "don't get me wrong I agree with you, and I have no problem with what you are saying, it is the way you are saying it, it is the way you are going about it."

"Now Wally, Eddie Haskell and his friends are causing a lot of trouble here and your Mother has prepared a very nice meal."

There were times when chlamor and I had heated arguments that went on for days, page after page, with hundreds of posts. Never once did that become disruptive or in any other way destructive to the board. It was vibrant, it was hard-hitting, it was stimulating, it was real - not some nicey-nice feel good mutual admiration club of a small number of "like-minded" people. Anyone here who thinks that he or I are disruptive or will start flame fests or something need to search the archives and see how people here at one time could have extremely adversarial arguments without it ever once devolving into name-calling or flame fests. Absurd. None of the new members are disruptive, trolls, freepers, CIA or any of the rest of the bullshit charges that have been leveled at them.

I feel sorry for admins and mods in this situation, having been in that position on dozens of boards over the years. I know the game. People who cannot have their points of view accepted by using persuasion or logical argument resort to a variety of guerrilla tactics and try to extort and pressure the admins and mods. They always want to build a case that those they would have banned - the ones who are dismantling their arguments root and branch - are trolls, are disruptive, are disturbing the peace, are hurting the board. This is all done through manipulation, insinuation, and slander. They then try to rally the troops, so that it appears that they speak for the majority of the membership. That makes it a worry for the admins.

The mods and admins, charged with the well being of the community, and not wanting people to leave, are very vulnerable to this appeal, and the schemers exploit that and manipulate the authority figures. It is exactly like petulant children scheming to draw the other children into trouble, and then running to the parents to tattle on them. The board that I was on that had the least trouble, the least flame fests, was one that had no mods or admins whatsoever. It is the appeals to authority that cause the problems, as people jockey for favor with the authority figures and try to manipulate them into fighting their battles for them.

This results in a highly suppressive atmosphere. People are led to believe that the only loss as a few "disruptors" - "who needs those assholes??" - and we hear "we had no choice" and the rest of the "this hurts me more than it does you" passive-aggressive nonsense. But it invariably rips the heart out of a community, intimidates many people who never say anything about that but just leave or stop posting, and it takes all of the air out of the sails. More and more people become focused on "getting along" - and this "getting along" means playing games and kissing up to admins and mods and creating Kool Kids cliques and rallying the mob and driving out anyone who is an outsider.

That is why boards don't grow. Lurkers watch that, and never sign up or never post because they can smell the game a mile away. Most sane people want nothing to do with that crap. The manipulators "win" at the expense of the whole community losing. No dissent is tolerated. Heretics are called disruptors, agents, trolls, operatives, and a small clique of people sets to work to bait, antagonize and provoke the unwanted ones in the hope that they will swing back and provide an excuse for banning them.

There was a buzz around the Internet about PI the last couple of weeks, and I started hearing from many lurkers who were reading regularly, finding it interesting for the first time in a long time, considering joining and jumping in and this would have led to the community being rebuilt and becoming much stronger.

The returning posters haven't changed, but something has. Apparently the Obama election has dragged everyone to the right, to where now the leftists stand out more, though they haven't moved, haven't changed, and certainly have not changed their "manners" or whatever else the excuse will be for suppression and enforcement of groupthink.

For the sake of the success of the board, the value of people's experience here, the contribution we are making to the political discussion around the Internet and in the country, and the quality of the discussion, I strongly urge everyone to re-think this direction things are (already!) starting to go, and consider the possibility that things are exactly the opposite of what a few want us to believe.

As I said, I have set up, admined, and modded many, many boards and have seen this same dynamic again and again. The tail will wag the dog if we are not careful, and a very few will dominate and manipulate the many and the discussions will collapse and so will interest and participation.

Please do not blame the admins and mods. They are being put in a very difficult position. It is almost humanly impossible for them to successfully negotiate these situations, and it is very stressful.

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=95753&mesg_id=95845

Of course let's remember this is in a thread where "some people" need to be disappeared according not only to the original poster but most definitely that being the wish of others as well.

Hey Tin just to let you know straight up as long as Kid's account is on hold I will do nothing but defend him which will mean that others will be at the end of my sword. No mercy.

You know I posted a thread about a billion people being hungry in this world now, and there was absolutely zero interest over there. Too busy washin' their Prius' this morning out in the suburbs. That's fine, and as far as LC's snide comment about Kid speaking for a lot of people - he can speak for me anytime, and I'd much rather hear what he has to say than the assholes over there hiding their nasty little passive-aggressive lynching attempts behind words like "peace" and "namaste". Fuck that.

To be honest, I don't think I presumed to speak for anyone but myself, and even then I was more posing questions than making a direct statement. I did reiterate what others had said (and essentially verbatim) but thats mainly because they are so selective in what they "hear" and what they don't don't hear over there

OK, Tin what the hell

My account on Prog Indy is deactivated?? Because I didn't get along with leftchicK? I guess she won't read this but I just scratched my crotch with her in mind


Hi Kid, I wasn't on PI and missed the brouhaha. Just caught it this morning and turned your account back on right after finding out it was turned off.

I must say you haven't lost your gift for pouring gasoline right where it will have the most effect. Color me shocked.

Virgil was an ass to start that thread; I'm not going to blame the reactions but the ensuing insults to Virgil's initial instult didn't help much. The thing that concerns me in that thread is that Dhalgren is a very clear, level-headed poster and your ideological ally. For Dhalgren to change his mind and come out in favor of an ignore feature (post 44) says quite a bit.

... Now that I think back, calling Virgil an ass-hag or ass-bag last week, probably didn't help but the real problem here is over smashing an idol.

I guess it's time to talk about truth vs civility at PI.

LC and I had a talk this morning. I think we need a new model for PI but I'm not sure what it is. I'm going to start a post at PI about this. Feel free, oh please don't hold back, to weigh in.

Just so you all know, this is what I told LC and this is the pickle I am in:


I am tired of being an "administrator". I've hated it for years.
I am leaving the country soon and have no intention of spending time administering disembodied keystrokes at the expense of time more urgently need helping poor people and neglected animals
PI is in a place right now where we have many civil, thoughtful people but not enough bullshit refuters.
My final point was do we want a board where people, Admins included, caved or got taken in by the Obama razzle and enabled what's going on right now or a board where people, the kind of people who knew how dangerous it was to cave in, were there to sound the alarm and explain the danger?


I am not going through this again (banning the very people whose thoughts pretty much match my own over civility) but I do, sincerely ask you to try to toss a little less gasoline on the public bonfire.

In the middle of typing my answer to you, I typed my response on PI.

Btw, I didn't ban you and your account is back on. LC is a lot quicker on the draw than I am and was trying to keep the waters from boiling over until we had a chance to talk. I will not be banning any of you and we'll have a talk about banning people. In fact, that's probably something that needs to be discussed on the board along with the whole idea of civility but I'll submit to you that incivility does nothing to advance anyone's argument- even if it's 100% correct.

Sorry this is so disjointed but my new rescue has been dry-heeving since Thursday night. He's on antibiotics because the vet thought it could be bronchitis but it hasn't stopped so I need to take him back to the vet to be put to sleep so they can look for a possible obstruction in his throat.

Well, unfortunately the puppy is sick now, but we're hoping he will pull through. The lady at the rescue took him back because he got sick on his 4th day with us, and didn't seem to be responding to the initial antiobiotics I got at our Vet. He has already had 3 rounds of vaccinations, but she is worried because one of her other dogs has distemper. So, she is trying to nurse him through & will bring him back if he does ok. I was grateful because I don't have all the equipment (syringes for force feeding etc...) and days at the Vet can run into thousands of dollars. So, we'll see how it comes out. He's a very sweet little thing, nearly 5 mos. old, and is very good with my 2-yr old as well. Your dogs are great - the larger one looks like a border collie. They are almost always rambunctious (and quite smart).

ETA - puppy had parvo, mild case, discharged today, and is back home where he belongs. the kids were so happy (we all ran in circles in the back yard... guess you had to be there...). Anyway, now I can focus again. :)


Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this :( My border collie is pretty sick right now. He had all his shots but he's had a very bad dry cough since Thursday and we're not sure what the problem is.

Parvo? That's pretty dangerous for the puppies. Poor thing. Did he have all his shots before he came down with it? I'm so glad he's back home. My house doesn't feel right if my babies aren't home. I can only picture the scene in your back-yard- how delightful!

She said you're "on hold" until she talks to Tin. It's like Mike said... lots of passive aggressive bs going on over there right now. We went through it all on OET and it hurt my head. I'm sure Mike has seen it on other sites as well. Maybe you'd fit in better if you bought a prius. ;)




We talked this morning. LC's point was civility but I think we need to look at the root of the problem. It all started several years ago when I made a not-transparent-enough administrative decision that coincided with a whacky idea I had of endorsing Kucinich and degenerated into a mess that pitted Leftists against New Agers.

Passive agressive shit & in-fighting. I just can't deal with it anymore or deal with having to make judgement calls on people's intentions. I think, at this stage, it's just better to let it go and let people hash it out. If it kills PI, that'll save me about $80/month and give me back my freedom to be a normal poster somewhere again.

I suppose this is just the nature of having a public playground. People are going to fight :shrug: Stand in between and you just get bitten.

Hey Tin just to let you know straight up as long as Kid's account is on hold I will do nothing but defend him which will mean that others will be at the end of my sword.

No mercy.

You got some problems over there and one of them is an insulting mod- leftchick- who then has the audacity to tell me to keep cool after her insults and says nothing to others, who are consistently insulting folks, except that she sympathizes with them.

Same old pattern where those who were challenged intellectually began the slurs and then those of us who speak more directly slapped 'em back and we were the heavies because we didn't take their crap and were straightforward with our language.

I'll fuckin' point it out in detail and the sequence as well to make it crystal clear. Got the receipts.

All those passive/aggressive insults okay but a resulting direct hit to the jaw a little to "uncivil" for the "New Thought" crowd? Fuck that. Get real here.



Hi Mike,

I have nothing to add to your post except agreement. Of course it wouldnt hurt to accept that it's hard, from a mod/admin POV to grasp the whole dynamics at work. LC was barely on as an Admin when the split happened and isn't putting this all in context which is a pain in the ass and impossible for anyone to do if they weren't keenly involved at the time.

Funny thing you that you mention civility because I was thinking of Rusty's thread about civility and thinking we needed to talk about that finally.

Seriously, I'm stepping back now. PI will be whatever you guys make of it. I just ask people to think about that before they post. For the record, I dont think there's anything incivil about telling the truth. People will have to either take it or leave it.

Also, for the record, LC didn't consider putting his account on hold as a banning but the difference is so technical and a poster can have no idea if they were banned or what. We're going to have to come up with a more transparent system that doesn't leave any room for misunderstandings and doesn't ban people without a community consensus.

I'd be pissed too. Sorry.

Hey Tin and TBF

On the lighter side, we have a cat. Everytime he goes to the vet it seems to cost $100 no matter if its just for flea medication or booster shots or some other "routine" reason for the visit.

We picked him up as a stray who just wandered by the house and decided to stay and he has some bacterial problems from not being vaccinated as a kitten.

My question for you two is -- how in the world do you afford so many animals?! Also, I have to tell you, I am not real comfortable sending a male dog or cat to have his nuts chopped off. I don't know how much maiming is involved in spaying. But if you don't do it you can't really keep a male cat since they'll spray everywhere and its pretty friggin disgusting

We're actually fortunate that there aren't more cats around too..our doofus is large (15-16 lbs) but tends to come home licking his wounds after a fight.Hes better at getting his ass kicked than running away I guess. Kind of embarrassing actually.

PS don't kill me but our cat's name is Cat and I have no cute photos of him..we did find a birthtday card that had a doppleganger cat on it once..we know we're bad cat owners, we just can't help it..

Hey Tin and TBF

On the lighter side, we have a cat. Everytime he goes to the vet it seems to cost $100 no matter if its just for flea medication or booster shots or some other "routine" reason for the visit.

We picked him up as a stray who just wandered by the house and decided to stay and he has some bacterial problems from not being vaccinated as a kitten.

My question for you two is -- how in the world do you afford so many animals?! Also, I have to tell you, I am not real comfortable sending a male dog or cat to have his nuts chopped off. I don't know how much maiming is involved in spaying. But if you don't do it you can't really keep a male cat since they'll spray everywhere and its pretty friggin disgusting

We're actually fortunate that there aren't more cats around too..our doofus is large (15-16 lbs) but tends to come home licking his wounds after a fight. Hes better at getting his ass kicked than running away I guess. Kind of embarrassing actually.

PS don't kill me but our cat's name is Cat and I have no cute photos of him..we did find a birthtday card that had a doppleganger cat on it once..we know we're bad cat owners, we just can't help it..


That's so cool. I mean cats are just too cool. Everytime I feed my dogs they look at me like I'm a goddess who brings real kill home from the grocery store and feeding it to them. My cat? Just looks at me like "hurry up and feed me, I'm the goddess here". They are so different from dogs but so wonderful. I'm thrilled you rescued that poor kitty and he has a good home.

How do I afford it? Well it's not easy. I have no savings and live from month to month sometimes with certain utilities getting cut off. I've had to sell things and cash in stock options from work. My last first and last dog cost me a devastating $17,000 (that I paid off in one of those death oN the installment plan options with the hospital because my credit was so bad) in less than a week of lies from "we can save him" "get him an MRI" "it doesn't look like a tumor" "we can operate and you'll have many happy years left" to "nerve sheath sarcoma but we got it all out" to " a week later having to put him down because his spinal cord had degenerated.

If you can at all afford it, get pet insurance. The company I settled with, after some research, was Petplan.

There is no maiming involved in neutering. Of course, you as a man will beg to differ. My ex had the same queeziness about it that you do but we got "our" dog neutered and he saw the results, he was very sorry he hadn't done it to his other dogs. After you get your cat fixed, he won't be involved in all those fights or tempted to roam and get hit by a car.

Just do it. Your cat won't even miss it and the recovery is quick. Advice? Get it done at the SPCA- they're a lot cheaper than going to an animal clinic.

My puppy had it done 2 weeks ago and was fine the next day even though I had to keep an eye on him so he wouldn't lick the surgical glue off (or in the case of stitches, rip them out).

You had enough money to make a monthly donation to PI back in the day. My advice? No more such donations but insurance for the cat instead. His unconditional love is priceless.

Jeez kid, I always knew there was a huge soft spot there. Btw, thank you for being one of the few who bought a damn goat to help a poor family in Haiti inch towards self-subsistancy. You have NO idea what that meant to me.

Back to the cat. I don't know how feasible this is but I figure I'm bright and mechanically gifted enough to learn how to administer yearly shots myself so I'm working on that now. I've had it with huge vet bills. It's not that I mind paying vets but I really mind paying for all the extraneous capitalistic bullshit that makes their bills so huge.

Are you married? Committed? If not, how about making friends with a vet tech and asking her/him to teach you? Or finding a way to take one of those vet tech courses as your contribution to "O-shoveling"?

PS. Re the embarrassment. I know what you mean. My puppy would flip on his back and start whimpering anytime the slightest confrontation started. I was MORTIFIED and suddenly understood how men could so aggressively tell their sons to stand up and fight. Anyway, he's neutered now, still the same personality wise but not destroying the house and not picking fights. As the bill-payer who cares about the length of our relationship, I'm selfishly delighted.

Go for it. You won't regret it and the cat won't miss it. All it does it eliminate any urges. Truly, have you ever seen an unhappy Eunuch?

Oh and thanks for meeting me halfway at PI. If this all fails, I give up. In hindsight, I should have started an explicatory thread but I didn't realize so many people had no idea what happened a few years ago and what your contributions to buiding PI were. We'll get through this over there or we'll fade off. Either outcome I can deal with.

On edit: Oh and take a fucking pic of Cat

Our cat has been neutered for years and the cat lives with my parents (and so do I presently). I couldn't afford a cat if I wanted one, especially after my accident. Whats funny is we lived out of a van for a year with a different cat in tow..the cat shit in his box under the bed in the back. Not fun. But strangely, he never had any difficulties or needed any kind of care in that year. Which was convenient since we tended to have about $10 to our name at any given time.

We had him that cat for years after we landed back in Florida so he suffered no ill effects (and he lived in that van in winter in Michigan..) but one day he just didn't come home :( "Cat people" are way too over-protective of cats by the way. Cats can take some rough-housing and if they really don't like something, they'll just run away.

PS I bought a goat? I remember donating a grand total of $10 or $20 which was about all I could possibly have spared. Are you sure it wasn't Rusty?

I spend way too much $$$ on both animals and the children, which is how I "afford it". I don't know how anyone affords anything these days. My spouse actually makes a good income, enough that I'm staying home now because we lose money when I work. But we are like a lot of the disappearing "middle" class, strapped with student loans, credit card bills, and don't manage to save much. We plug away and hope it will get better down the road I guess.

We adopted our last dog in grad school and spent way too much on Vet bills through the years. When she got very sick last fall we didn't prolong it. At least the vet was honest and told us we could spend thousands to get her through the acute pancreatitis, and then might wind up losing her anyway so we took his advice and let her go peacefully.

With this most recent puppy we had him 3/4 days before I noticed something wasn't right - and then he stopped eating so I took him to the Vet on Monday. Nearly $200 later I had an incomplete diagnosis and a dog that wasn't responding to the antibiotics. So I told the group that we were returning him, and they decided they would pay his medical care and return him to us if they could. We were thrilled initially to get him back so quickly, but this afternoon I've been worried because he seems to still be having some vomiting issues. So, we'll see how it all plays out. The rescue groups do their best but it's like everything else. Rich people get the best of everything and the rest of us get what crumbs we can. And I really shouldn't complain because we do have a good income. But that just tells you how bad it has gotten in this country, when it's only the people with massive inherited wealth (or working as stock brokers) that have a decent quality of life with few worries.

I don't mind cats but I'm allergic to them so I admire the strays from afar. We have one neighbor cat that comes over a lot and my kids play with her.

Our cat has been neutered for years and the cat lives with my parents (and so do I presently). I couldn't afford a cat if I wanted one, especially after my accident. Whats funny is we lived out of a van for a year with a different cat in tow..the cat shit in his box under the bed in the back. Not fun. But strangely, he never had any difficulties or needed any kind of care in that year. Which was convenient since we tended to have about $10 to our name at any given time.

We had him that cat for years after we landed back in Florida so he suffered no ill effects (and he lived in that van in winter in Michigan..) but one day he just didn't come home :( "Cat people" are way too over-protective of cats by the way. Cats can take some rough-housing and if they really don't like something, they'll just run away.

PS I bought a goat? I remember donating a grand total of $10 or $20 which was about all I could possibly have spared. Are you sure it wasn't Rusty?


No. I'm sure it was you. The cost was $50 and you were one of the few. You even gave an additional ~50 (I'd have to check) after I banned MBerst and refused to take it back when I told you I wasn't changing my mind for the time being. The way I look at it, I owe you $50 for that but the goat money is off doing better things. If you want, I can reverse that to Soc Indy in your name or send you a check. I never felt right about keeping your money or Rusty's either. Or anything Chlamor sent in after the split.

Cats? Sometimes they just go away to die, like dogs, like people. Kind of a 'loved you but leave me alone so I can go quietly now' thing.

The goat. Yeah, I'm absolutely sure it was you.

Our cat has been neutered for years and the cat lives with my parents (and so do I presently). I couldn't afford a cat if I wanted one, especially after my accident. Whats funny is we lived out of a van for a year with a different cat in tow..the cat shit in his box under the bed in the back. Not fun. But strangely, he never had any difficulties or needed any kind of care in that year. Which was convenient since we tended to have about $10 to our name at any given time.

We had him that cat for years after we landed back in Florida so he suffered no ill effects (and he lived in that van in winter in Michigan..) but one day he just didn't come home :( "Cat people" are way too over-protective of cats by the way. Cats can take some rough-housing and if they really don't like something, they'll just run away.

PS I bought a goat? I remember donating a grand total of $10 or $20 which was about all I could possibly have spared. Are you sure it wasn't Rusty?


No. I'm sure it was you. The cost was $50 and you were one of the few. You even gave an additional ~50 (I'd have to check) after I banned MBerst and refused to take it back when I told you I wasn't changing my mind for the time being. The way I look at it, I owe you $50 for that but the goat money is off doing better things. If you want, I can reverse that to Soc Indy in your name or send you a check. I never felt right about keeping your money or Rusty's either. Or anything Chlamor sent in after the split.

Cats? Sometimes they just go away to die, like dogs, like people. Kind of a 'loved you but leave me alone so I can go quietly now' thing.

The goat. Yeah, I'm absolutely sure it was you.


Hey Tin, you remember the "cat wars" at DU? Think you were still there.Man that was ludicris but the deal is still the same, outdoor & feral cats wack native birds by the bucketful.

Bah, there I go again.

Our cat has been neutered for years and the cat lives with my parents (and so do I presently). I couldn't afford a cat if I wanted one, especially after my accident. Whats funny is we lived out of a van for a year with a different cat in tow..the cat shit in his box under the bed in the back. Not fun. But strangely, he never had any difficulties or needed any kind of care in that year. Which was convenient since we tended to have about $10 to our name at any given time.

We had him that cat for years after we landed back in Florida so he suffered no ill effects (and he lived in that van in winter in Michigan..) but one day he just didn't come home :( "Cat people" are way too over-protective of cats by the way. Cats can take some rough-housing and if they really don't like something, they'll just run away.

PS I bought a goat? I remember donating a grand total of $10 or $20 which was about all I could possibly have spared. Are you sure it wasn't Rusty?


No. I'm sure it was you. The cost was $50 and you were one of the few. You even gave an additional ~50 (I'd have to check) after I banned MBerst and refused to take it back when I told you I wasn't changing my mind for the time being. The way I look at it, I owe you $50 for that but the goat money is off doing better things. If you want, I can reverse that to Soc Indy in your name or send you a check. I never felt right about keeping your money or Rusty's either. Or anything Chlamor sent in after the split.

Cats? Sometimes they just go away to die, like dogs, like people. Kind of a 'loved you but leave me alone so I can go quietly now' thing.

The goat. Yeah, I'm absolutely sure it was you.


Hey Tin, you remember the "cat wars" at DU? Think you were still there.Man that was ludicris but the deal is still the same, outdoor & feral cats wack native birds by the bucketful.

Bah, there I go again.


Well Jesus fuck, talking about feral cats... guess who just had the nerve to walk back in at PI, Croseed-eyed selfish piss-starting Libertarian cat itself (http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=95866&mesg_id=96018) My blood is really boiling now.

I vaguely remember the cat wars at DU but no the specifics. I just remember they made me very angry. I hate the idea of cats killing for meat but what's the difference between that and a bucket of KFC? Between that and a burger? People really need to get this all into perspective. Love the cats and help them but please save the children first.

Edit for typo

Well Jesus fuck, talking about feral cats... guess who just had the nerve to walk back in at PI, Croseed-eyed selish piss-starting Libertarian cat itself (http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=95866&mesg_id=96018) My blood is really boiling now.



That guy was one of the few people on the Internet who I actually learned to hate.

... who wasn't a Fascist.

Well, on second thought...

We talked this morning. LC's point was civility but I think we need to look at the root of the problem. It all started several years ago when I made a not-transparent-enough administrative decision that coincided with a whacky idea I had of endorsing Kucinich and degenerated into a mess that pitted Leftists against New Agers.



Civility is a funny thing. The same person who sees a bad word doesn't see a red-baiter or an accusation that someone is a tool of the government or whatever. It ends up being an eye-of-the-beholder-thing.

"You insulted my friend. Well, your friend called me a Nazi child molester. Yeah, but you really hurt my friend's feelings."

Liberals get so used to their own perspectives that they longer see them as offensive. It probably works that way for everyone...

We talked this morning. LC's point was civility but I think we need to look at the root of the problem. It all started several years ago when I made a not-transparent-enough administrative decision that coincided with a whacky idea I had of endorsing Kucinich and degenerated into a mess that pitted Leftists against New Agers.



Civility is a funny thing. The same person who sees a bad word doesn't see a red-baiter or an accusation that someone is a tool of the government or whatever. It ends up being an eye-of-the-beholder-thing.

"You insulted my friend. Well, your friend called me a Nazi child molester. Yeah, but you really hurt my friend's feelings."

Liberals get so used to their own perspectives that they longer see them as offensive. It probably works that way for everyone...



I have no idea how to deal with this civility thing other than to let people work it out it as it arises.

Net nanny? Been there, done that, not falling into that trap again.

We may have lost a few members. I certainly hope not and feel very bad that some people are feeling attacked but hey, it's a free country.

Well Jesus fuck, talking about feral cats... guess who just had the nerve to walk back in at PI, Croseed-eyed selish piss-starting Libertarian cat itself (http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=95866&mesg_id=96018) My blood is really boiling now.



That guy was one of the few people on the Internet who I actually learned to hate.

... who wasn't a Fascist.

Well, on second thought...




What did it for me was "If you don't like living in poverty, just move to a better neighborhood".

What did it for me was "If you don't like living in poverty, just move to a better neighborhood".


That pissed me off to but there was worse afterwards.. but it was all so... polite.

God I really fucked up.

I need help on the "rules" Kid. You, who are very rude but very sincere, are proably the best person to help here. Bear in mind that I'm striving for a forum where there are no right-wingers or right-wing democrats and that I really dont want to be chained to PI to "enforce" those rules.

The new software we're moving to allows us to give Admin and sub-Admin rights to people.

Coupla' those characters are downright creeps. Not too far off from McCarthy in fact. Of course they'd like to think otherwise or would pretend to but in a pinch they'd turn you in. Count on it.

Venal cowards.

Tin...if I may

Everyone knows I'm not a prolific poster, just a serial reader - and I see a couple of people at PI deliberately instigating bullshit. The fake outraged accusations about 'violence' and 'thugs' is not only false, but seems reactionary in a scripted way.

Just my .02

although I admit I find the image of Anax in jackboots kinda, well, appealing :P

Basically it's 3 people who are pissed that their imagined little Fiefdom has been overthrown. They just want a place where they can tell Skinner he sucks without getting banned, but they're not really interested in systemic change. But then that's what Americans are programmed to think, so maybe there are many more thinking the same thing but not acting out. My hat's off to Tin for trying to manage it, a thankless job for sure. It's a cool site, though, could be a real alternative to DU with a little effort.

Tin...if I may

Everyone knows I'm not a prolific poster, just a serial reader - and I see a couple of people at PI deliberately instigating bullshit. The fake outraged accusations about 'violence' and 'thugs' is not only false, but seems reactionary in a scripted way.

Just my .02

although I admit I find the image of Anax in jackboots kinda, well, appealing :P


I see it too and I'm glad you confirmed it. I figured I'd give them a few days to cool down.

I will probably take a few days off from PI as well..I just can't talk about feelings anymore and I can't bring myself to read 100 post exchanges where every post is a wall of text that I don't understand

Anax made a post about the economic crises, how a 12 year old would solve it, and What *Could* Be Done. Seems like that should be an OP, but sadly it'd get 5 echo chamber responses while the latest rounds of "He was mean to me!" and "I don't like him!" rack up the replies.

I will probably take a few days off from PI as well..I just can't talk about feelings anymore and I can't bring myself to read 100 post exchanges where every post is a wall of text that I don't understand

Anax made a post about the economic crises, how a 12 year old would solve it, and What *Could* Be Done. Seems like that should be an OP, but sadly it'd get 5 echo chamber responses while the latest rounds of "He was mean to me!" and "I don't like him!" rack up the replies.


Better idea... Put it up as an OP and defend it. All of the real "sectarian" issues come out on shit like that. "I don't want violence." OK, we'll take their property politely (I'm not kiddin'). "I don't want all them mines and mills put back into operation. I am afraid for the Green." OK, then we subsidize that and someone pays... Gives to gets.

Who pays?

There ya go. That is the question.

I don't trust any "state". I want an anarcho-artistic worker's collective. Well, that's fine by me but you had better be able to defend your gains.

Who do we have to "defend" from?

There ya go. That is the question.

There are some nice practical abstract questions - not just abstract, abstract ones.

Your turn, Anax, I'm sick of being poked and prodded:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=96367&mesg_id=96367

I think I will take a break from them for awhile.

Your turn, Anax, I'm sick of being poked and prodded:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=96367&mesg_id=96367

I think I will take a break from them for awhile.


I'm done. Mairead is the end.

Your turn, Anax, I'm sick of being poked and prodded:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=96367&mesg_id=96367

I think I will take a break from them for awhile.


I'm done. Mairead is the end.




Will someone please explain to me what the deal is with Mairead? I have no idea.

The very sad part for me is that if you guys go, well, I'm going too and will probably just pull the plug on this whole internet discussion idea.

Your turn, Anax, I'm sick of being poked and prodded:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=96367&mesg_id=96367

I think I will take a break from them for awhile.


I'm done. Mairead is the end.




Will someone please explain to me what the deal is with Mairead? I have no idea


Every post she writes is pretty much a synopsis of "the deal with Mairead" actually. She was on Pop Indy for a while. We got sick of her bullshit, she huffed off only to reappear *now* of all times. Mike knows her from earlier, around 04/05 or sometime like that.

Pretty much plays the "disrupt as much as possbile while being as underhandedly and covertly malicious as possible all while trying to strike a 'reasonable' tone" angle to the hilt. And she crys on her way out normally which is a no-no in baseball and frowned on even in love and war

Rustys lost the plotline which is why he wanted her unbanned (IMO). She has to go or you might as well bend over and manually insert the re-bar yourself\

http://www.usingrebar.com/Rebar-Protectors-big.jpg

You guys put up with a lot. That one post was enough to put her on my "is this one a lawyer too?" list. Heh. Seriously, what a PITA. They've driven Chlamor to posting porn. Tinoire ought to pull the plug and put the whole lot of them out of their misery.

Every post she writes is pretty much a synopsis of "the deal with Mairead" actually. She was on Pop Indy for a while. We got sick of her bullshit, she huffed off only to reappear *now* of all times. Mike knows her from earlier, around 04/05 or sometime like that.

Pretty much plays the "disrupt as much as possbile while being as underhandedly and covertly malicious as possible all while trying to strike a 'reasonable' tone" angle to the hilt. And she crys on her way out normally which is a no-no in baseball and frowned on even in love and war

Rustys lost the plotline which is why he wanted her unbanned (IMO). She has to go or you might as well bend over and manually insert the re-bar yourself\


Well, I look like a fool on the board but she's gone. "only to reappear *now* of all times" is what really gets me.

I understand Rusty's point to just let her self-decompose on the board but right now I'm in a pretty tight spot. LC is mad and about to walk out over the "tone" bit it's hard for me to worry about the "tone" on a board where someone posted a thread about alien lizard messages from god and nobody, I mean nobody said a word until I did. Or that Maitreya Messiah who showed up and was warmly welcomed. Jesus fuck. It's honestly fine if LC wants to leave and does what she thinks is best for her especially since she's going to start working soon and won't have as much time on the board. I hope there won't be any bitter feelings.

So Mairead is gone (sorry Rusty; I can't afford that bs right now) and what the hell is a re-bar?

Your turn, Anax, I'm sick of being poked and prodded:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=96367&mesg_id=96367

I think I will take a break from them for awhile.


I'm done. Mairead is the end.




Will someone please explain to me what the deal is with Mairead? I have no idea


Every post she writes is pretty much a synopsis of "the deal with Mairead" actually. She was on Pop Indy for a while. We got sick of her bullshit, she huffed off only to reappear *now* of all times. Mike knows her from earlier, around 04/05 or sometime like that.

Pretty much plays the "disrupt as much as possbile while being as underhandedly and covertly malicious as possible all while trying to strike a 'reasonable' tone" angle to the hilt. And she crys on her way out normally which is a no-no in baseball and frowned on even in love and war

Rustys lost the plotline which is why he wanted her unbanned (IMO). She has to go or you might as well bend over and manually insert the re-bar yourself\

http://www.usingrebar.com/Rebar-Protectors-big.jpg


Mairead is as close to a "disrupter" in DU parlance as I have seen. She used to harrass Mikey non-stop. Ordinarily, she wouldn't be a problem but on a site like PI, she is guarenteed to be a lightning rod for everyone who thinks Reds should be burned on general principles. The problem is that nobody like me can ignore that. Red-baiting makes any actual discussion nearly impossible but nobody over there even knows what it is. LC, for example, can see "fuck" but not "Red's eat babies, don't they?" It means that someone like me just had their workload quadrupled while I am also continuously going to be cast in the role of the king of smackdowns. A right-winger would be a lot easier. It is a very difficult situation in which to discuss anything of substance. I'm scratching my head for a solution.

Have no idea what's up with Rusty. Haven't seen him in a while.

Dude, I am more than willing to take the heat off you as the king of smackdowns, but I don't think it will help much

Tinoire actually banned Mairead over there, but then Rusty shows up and made an impassioned plea to have her *unbanned* which Tinoire acquiesed to. Rusty is also extolling the virtues of communism on PI right now, which I think is a dual-edged sword at best. When Chlamor is the one charged with lightening the mood you know the tension is thick :)

Rebar is/are long steel rods inserted into wet concrete (usually by having it poured into a mold which already contains the rebar) to produce "reinforced concrete". The structural properties that result make the concrete much stronger but it is a bitch to work with. The shit rusts, too.

You guys put up with a lot. That one post was enough to put her on my "is this one a lawyer too?" list. Heh. Seriously, what a PITA. They've driven Chlamor to posting porn. Tinoire ought to pull the plug and put the whole lot of them out of their misery.


Please don't encourage me because I'm tempted. Really tempted but the few loud assholes aren't all of PI.

So you guys tell me... Do I toss them? I hate banning people and unlike former times, civility has apparently gone out the window and my temper over civility isn't running the show anymore. What do I do here?

I care but I also don't care *at this very moment*. The fireworks are leaving me pretty numb.

You guys put up with a lot. That one post was enough to put her on my "is this one a lawyer too?" list.


If we're still around when we storm the factories, I nominate you to head the clean-up crew (you know the type a la Che) :)

You guys put up with a lot. That one post was enough to put her on my "is this one a lawyer too?" list. Heh. Seriously, what a PITA. They've driven Chlamor to posting porn. Tinoire ought to pull the plug and put the whole lot of them out of their misery.


Please don't encourage me because I'm tempted. Really tempted but the few loud assholes aren't all of PI.

So you guys tell me... Do I toss them? I hate banning people and unlike former times, civility has apparently gone out the window and my temper over civility isn't running the show anymore. What do I do here?

I care but I also don't care *at this very moment*. The fireworks are leaving me pretty numb.


Take a break Tin, theres urgency and then theres urgency. Talk to Mike about Liberation Theology for a spell, sounds like hes game..

You guys put up with a lot. That one post was enough to put her on my "is this one a lawyer too?" list.


If we're still around when we storm the factories, I nominate you to head the clean-up crew (you know the type a la Che) :)


You know I thought about posting Che's picture in the official commie thread to spruce it up a little, but I didn't want to encourage Chlamor too much. He's been on a roll tonight, but I don't envy Tinoire the clean-up.

http://mostlywater.org/system/files/images/che-guevara-2.jpg

Mairead is as close to a "disrupter" in DU parlance as I have seen. She used to harrass Mikey non-stop. Ordinarily, she wouldn't be a problem but on a site like PI, she is guarenteed to be a lightning rod for everyone who thinks Reds should be burned on general principles. The problem is that nobody like me can ignore that. Red-baiting makes any actual discussion nearly impossible but nobody over there even knows what it is. LC, for example, can see "fuck" but not "Red's eat babies, don't they?" It means that someone like me just had their workload quadrupled while I am also continuously going to be cast in the role of the king of smackdowns. A right-winger would be a lot easier. It is a very difficult situation in which to discuss anything of substance. I'm scratching my head for a solution.

Have no idea what's up with Rusty. Haven't seen him in a while.


I figured something was bad when you got upset. I've never seen you so pissed off before. LC? Please. She and I need to talk and have been trying to all day but her son was in the hospital today so we haven't yet. Needless to say she is pissed and I agree about "fuck" but not "Red's eat babies, don't they?"

Megan was very able to see through that shit.

Well Mairead is gone. I looked at the 50 posts she made at PI during her entire stay and none of them were significant enough to even try to decipher today's thread.

I sent Maat a PM bluntly telling her that Lupercalio played her before disappearing and leaving her, totally bewildered, to hold the bag. I hope she can detach herself to analyze that.

Montag. Jesus. I had no idea he could be such a dick. Sorry, I have another window open and he's starting more shit. Why is this not really a surprise?

Hang in there, Tin, you can put it all in the playground when they finally tire out. Sort of like toddlers...

Mairead is as close to a "disrupter" in DU parlance as I have seen. She used to harass Mikey non-stop. Ordinarily, she wouldn't be a problem but on a site like PI, she is guaranteed to be a lightning rod for everyone who thinks Reds should be burned on general principles. The problem is that nobody like me can ignore that. Red-baiting makes any actual discussion nearly impossible but nobody over there even knows what it is. LC, for example, can see "fuck" but not "Red's eat babies, don't they?" It means that someone like me just had their workload quadrupled while I am also continuously going to be cast in the role of the king of smackdowns. A right-winger would be a lot easier. It is a very difficult situation in which to discuss anything of substance. I'm scratching my head for a solution.

Have no idea what's up with Rusty. Haven't seen him in a while.


I figured something was bad when you got upset. I've never seen you so pissed off before. LC? Please. She and I need to talk and have been trying to all day but her son was in the hospital today so we haven't yet. Needless to say she is pissed and I agree about "fuck" but not "Red's eat babies, don't they?"

Megan was very able to see through that shit.

Well Mairead is gone. I looked at the 50 posts she made at PI during her entire stay and none of them were significant enough to even try to decipher today's thread.

I sent Maat a PM bluntly telling her that Lupercalio played her before disappearing and leaving her, totally bewildered, to hold the bag. I hope she can detach herself to analyze that.

Montag. Jesus. I had no idea he could be such a dick. Sorry, I have another window open and he's starting more shit. Why is this not really a surprise?


We'll let it chill for now... Chlams actually did a good job. You did too... not looking foolish at all.

There has to be a way through this shit. There are "socialists" appearing out of the woodwork everywhere and they gotta have a place to go. But there are also many radical and disillusioned Democrats. Its counter productive to talk about Marxist doctrine at PI. There are places for that. But it is very productive to talk about the current state of affairs, about real state of the world... in other words to do what you originally intended. THe problem is that the world is a very different place. It is no longer being driven by people who doubt the "official story" or want to pile on Bush, but by people who are about to lose their house.

We'll take it a step at a time and I accept the need to walk lightly. Rusty is wrong. The baiters will tear the joint apart but so will the too quick hammer to someone who is genuinely confused.

OK... My head is straighter...

Take a break Tin, theres urgency and then theres urgency. Talk to Mike about Liberation Theology for a spell, sounds like hes game..


Am starting to do just that. We may need a religious theory forum soon because knowing Mike this will be thorough and involved. Thankfully.

The real urgency is getting my ass out of here and onto the next stage. Watching these temper trantrums on the net, while Iran, the mother of all fuckers, burns is mind-boggling.

Rebar is/are long steel rods inserted into wet concrete (usually by having it poured into a mold which already contains the rebar) to produce "reinforced concrete". The structural properties that result make the concrete much stronger but it is a bitch to work with. The shit rusts, too.



Thanks. What an appropriate analogy but I won't be inserting any of those anytime soon. Seriously, if this is what PI comes to, I'd rather just forget it and wash, walk, play with, the dogs.

Rebars lol. What a great scrabble word.

You know I thought about posting Che's picture in the official commie thread to spruce it up a little, but I didn't want to encourage Chlamor too much. He's been on a roll tonight, but I don't envy Tinoire the clean-up.

http://mostlywater.org/system/files/images/che-guevara-2.jpg


LMAO! Chlamor knows perfectly well that I HATE cleaning up after him. In fact the time I sent him an e-mail asking him to please respect my labor, all he came back with was "oh you're good" 'manipulating me on labor'

but it's seriously ok. The maid has quit. People can clean up after their own damn selves now.

We'll let it chill for now... Chlams actually did a good job. You did too... not looking foolish at all.

There has to be a way through this shit. There are "socialists" appearing out of the woodwork everywhere and they gotta have a place to go. But there are also many radical and disillusioned Democrats. Its counter productive to talk about Marxist doctrine at PI. There are places for that. But it is very productive to talk about the current state of affairs, about real state of the world... in other words to do what you originally intended. THe problem is that the world is a very different place. It is no longer being driven by people who doubt the "official story" or want to pile on Bush, but by people who are about to lose their house.

We'll take it a step at a time and I accept the need to walk lightly. Rusty is wrong. The baiters will tear the joint apart but so will the too quick hammer to someone who is genuinely confused.

OK... My head is straighter...


It's not just socialists, but many *squishy* progressives looking for a further route. There are people logging in that we haven't seen in months. Thank you Anax, I really appreciate all this support. Its downright overwhelming.

That is the worse mess I have ever seen online, and that is saying a lot. You are doing OK Tin, don't worry.

Anaxarchos makes an important point - hell I don't want to talk about red-baiting, but there really is no choice because it makes discussion of anything impossible.

I have never seen a more violent reaction by people to "the terrible persecution of liberals and white folks." Montag is off the deep end and maat is sucked in completely.

It is hard to imagine that on a progressive board we have people arguing reverse racism, defending privilege, red-baiting as viciously as any right wing mob ever did, and on and on.

Mairead. WTF? She mysteriously appears after not being around for months - always - at the precise moment and cleverly - too, too cleverly - throws the whole group into chaos. She did it at the Kucinich board 5 years ago, at the Clark board, at the DFA board, and at PopIndy. The rest of the time she is nowhere to be seen. She always shows up at the most opportune time for disrupting any left wing talk, and at the moment that a group is most vulnerable. What does she do the rest of the time? How does she know what is happening at the boards if she doesn't monitor them all the time? Does she get a call - "spill in aisle 5" or something?

Sounds like you have a stalker, Mike. What fun!

That is the worse mess I have ever seen online, and that is saying a lot. You are doing OK Tin, don't worry.

Anaxarchos makes an important point - hell I don't want to talk about red-baiting, but there really is no choice because it makes discussion of anything impossible.

I have never seen a more violent reaction by people to "the terrible persecution of liberals and white folks." Montag is off the deep end and maat is sucked in completely.

It is hard to imagine that on a progressive board we have people arguing reverse racism, defending privilege, red-baiting as viciously as any right wing mob ever did, and on and on.

Mairead. WTF? She mysteriously appears after not being around for months - always - at the precise moment and cleverly - too, too cleverly - throws the whole group into chaos. She did it at the Kucinich board 5 years ago, at the Clark board, at the DFA board, and at PopIndy. The rest of the time she is nowhere to be seen. She always shows up at the most opportune time for disrupting any left wing talk, and at the moment that a group is most vulnerable. What does she do the rest of the time? How does she know what is happening at the boards if she doesn't monitor them all the time? Does she get a call - "spill in aisle 5" or something?


Maat just got 'unsucked'. I sent her a PM asking where Lupercalio went after sucking her into his drama and twisting her original words into something more sinister. She didn't see it happening and seriously wasn't understanding why she was being accused. We had a blunt exchange and she does find it very strange that Lupercalio disappeared after twisting something she wrote to him about keeping cool and hasn't even contacted her. Maat is excellent people.

Montag is apparently going to stomp his feet and hold his breath until he turns blue. That's fine. It'll match the decor.

Thanks for the encouragement Mike. I was expecting to find PI slashed & burned to the groung this morning and am pleasantly surprised that things seem better with that people like DoYouEverWonder have weighed in in support.

That is the worse mess I have ever seen online, and that is saying a lot. You are doing OK Tin, don't worry.

Anaxarchos makes an important point - hell I don't want to talk about red-baiting, but there really is no choice because it makes discussion of anything impossible.

I have never seen a more violent reaction by people to "the terrible persecution of liberals and white folks." Montag is off the deep end and maat is sucked in completely.

It is hard to imagine that on a progressive board we have people arguing reverse racism, defending privilege, red-baiting as viciously as any right wing mob ever did, and on and on.

Mairead. WTF? She mysteriously appears after not being around for months - always - at the precise moment and cleverly - too, too cleverly - throws the whole group into chaos. She did it at the Kucinich board 5 years ago, at the Clark board, at the DFA board, and at PopIndy. The rest of the time she is nowhere to be seen. She always shows up at the most opportune time for disrupting any left wing talk, and at the moment that a group is most vulnerable. What does she do the rest of the time? How does she know what is happening at the boards if she doesn't monitor them all the time? Does she get a call - "spill in aisle 5" or something?


Mairead's appearance , geez, what timing, talk about kicking the beehive. WTF is her game?

Maat just got 'unsucked'. I sent her a PM asking where Lupercalio went after sucking her into his drama and twisting her original words into something more sinister. She didn't see it happening and seriously wasn't understanding why she was being accused. We had a blunt exchange and she does find it very strange that Lupercalio disappeared after twisting something she wrote to him about keeping cool and hasn't even contacted her. Maat is excellent people.

She's fine, Tin, just a pretty average clueless liberal. I do understand her POV, I've lived the same lifestyle as her for awhile now and she may not have the experience of growing up poor as I did. But I'm glad you talked to her & maybe she'll think about some of this and give people more of a chance. But that Mairead character is another issue, I think she understands exactly what she's doing.

Maat just got 'unsucked'. I sent her a PM asking where Lupercalio went after sucking her into his drama and twisting her original words into something more sinister. She didn't see it happening and seriously wasn't understanding why she was being accused. We had a blunt exchange and she does find it very strange that Lupercalio disappeared after twisting something she wrote to him about keeping cool and hasn't even contacted her. Maat is excellent people.

She's fine, Tin, just a pretty average clueless liberal. I do understand her POV, I've lived the same lifestyle as her for awhile now and she may not have the experience of growing up poor as I did. But I'm glad you talked to her & maybe she'll think about some of this and give people more of a chance. But that Mairead character is another issue, I think she understands exactly what she's doing.


On a MUCH brighter note (never mind the collusion it's ellen's reaction I like) http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=153&topic_id=861&mesg_id=865

I have only seen a forum go really bad really quickly like that a few times - people maniacally posting the same topic over and over again as new threads, everyone losing their minds, insults flying and people so angry they can't put sentences together, admins and mods tearing their hair out or quitting - everything getting very strange very quickly.

It happened at the Clark board just this way, and at the DFA board and the Kucinich board - that was a great admin team and membership there and was really active - and then at PopIndy.

All five times, just as the riot reached fever pitch, along comes Mairead to shove things over the cliff. Not only that, those are the only times I have encountered Mairead. At the Clark board we noticed a huge upswing in PM traffic as things escalated (I was never an admin at a board where they read the actual PMs, as they do at DU, but we could see the amount of traffic.) I wonder if Mairead starts with a PM campaign before she appears on the board? That would explain how people can get so out of control and upset so quickly - if someone were egging it on.

That is the worse mess I have ever seen online, and that is saying a lot. You are doing OK Tin, don't worry.

Anaxarchos makes an important point - hell I don't want to talk about red-baiting, but there really is no choice because it makes discussion of anything impossible.

I have never seen a more violent reaction by people to "the terrible persecution of liberals and white folks." Montag is off the deep end and maat is sucked in completely.

It is hard to imagine that on a progressive board we have people arguing reverse racism, defending privilege, red-baiting as viciously as any right wing mob ever did, and on and on.

Mairead. WTF? She mysteriously appears after not being around for months - always - at the precise moment and cleverly - too, too cleverly - throws the whole group into chaos. She did it at the Kucinich board 5 years ago, at the Clark board, at the DFA board, and at PopIndy. The rest of the time she is nowhere to be seen. She always shows up at the most opportune time for disrupting any left wing talk, and at the moment that a group is most vulnerable. What does she do the rest of the time? How does she know what is happening at the boards if she doesn't monitor them all the time? Does she get a call - "spill in aisle 5" or something?


Nyet... Is not "mess". Is 5 year plan.

Mike, your piece on PI was brilliant and you just gave me visions about Mairead. She is on a simple cot watching TV... a situation comedy. All of a sudden, the siren goes off. On with the boots and down the fire pole... "Three alarm at DKOS..."

Humor aside, it is disconcerting... and I know you had your suspicions.

Well actually I think things are going quite well over yonder. Best the place has looked in a while and there are many ways to bring things into the realm of wider participation and gettin' new folks involved.

Just gettin' started, right y'all?

You may be just getting started, I think it's time for me to retire to watching Wimbledon. My two-year old is less maintenance than Montag. But I will give it a few days and check back.

You may be just getting started, I think it's time for me to retire to watching Wimbledon. My two-year old is less maintenance than Montag. But I will give it a few days and check back.


He's beginning to cool down already. Probably feeling sheepish about how foolish he's looked and still trying to retain some shred of self-justification.

Hope to see you soon. Who knows what lovely dish Chlamor will serve up in time for your return ;)

Well actually I think things are going quite well over yonder. Best the place has looked in a while and there are many ways to bring things into the realm of wider participation and gettin' new folks involved.

Just gettin' started, right y'all?


Dipshit...

Dipshit...


Lol. And loving every minute of it I bet.

Well actually I think things are going quite well over yonder. Best the place has looked in a while and there are many ways to bring things into the realm of wider participation and gettin' new folks involved.

Just gettin' started, right y'all?


Dipshit...



Heh. You must know that bee stings cure the arthritis and hey the nest is stirred so get your body in there. Look what's happenin'. Half of em are already workin' on your statue, the other on your effigy. You can thank me later.

Anyway as you know it's for real and things are comin' fast. You're a much needed voice, more than you might care to admit, so don't try to skulk off in a huff my pretty.

Going back over this thread. Sheesh. What are you guys? A bunch of touchy-feely bleeding heart liberals?

I am going to delete references to a member here, at their request. A member says they are at risk, and that is good enough for me.

Then I am going to come back and speak a few harsh words about this.

I am with Rusty on this.

All of the chatter on this thread about "drama" and hurt feelings and the rest of that crap - what are ya, a bunch of libruls?

A member as concerned about being snitchjacketed. In the real world. There is a real world out there, you know. That is a concern. It has nothing to do with hurt feelings or "can't we all get along" nonsense. It is not "drama" and it is not a distraction.

The initial post that started the argument was not about emotions or relationships, was entirely calm, did not make any accusations, did not draw any wild or unfounded conclusions and raised a very serious issue.

When I talked about trust, I was not talking about some sort of gentrified muddle class emotional relationship stuff, some sort of feel-good "liking each other" crap. I was talking about having another person's back in the face of real danger.

Instead, we got a bunch of ridicule and dismissal, and the member's concern was treated as though it were some sort of mental illness to be analyzed. Fuckin' eh, folks, that is bunch of Oprah bullshit.

I am with Rusty on this.

All of the chatter on this thread about "drama" and hurt feelings and the rest of that crap - what are ya, a bunch of libruls?

A member as concerned about being snitchjacketed. In the real world. There is a real world out there, you know. That is a concern. It has nothing to do with hurt feelings or "can't we all get along" nonsense. It is not "drama" and it is not a distraction.

The initial post that started the argument was not about emotions or relationships, was entirely calm, did not make any accusations, did not draw any wild or unfounded conclusions and raised a very serious issue.

When I talked about trust, I was not talking about some sort of gentrified muddle class emotional relationship stuff, some sort of feel-good "liking each other" crap. I was talking about having another person's back in the face of real danger.

Instead, we got a bunch of ridicule and dismissal, and the member's concern was treated as though it were some sort of mental illness to be analyzed. Fuckin' eh, folks, that is bunch of Oprah bullshit.


What did I miss here?

EDIT: oh, I get it. Not worth touching on but:

1. An unidentified member -- call him/her "D" -- followed another member "T" from another board to here and D accused T of going after him/her in real life. T completely denied involvement.

Note that D DID NOT present him/herself as being snitchjacketed but was instead pursuing a personal vendetta against T. All of this came out of nowhere.

Your defense of your friends and comrades is admirable Mike, but what the hell are you gonna do with a situation like that? *Especially* when the accuser, D, is "sure" it must have been T who did it, despite presenting not a shred of proof other than his/her own suspicions and some loose conjecture

Sorry, buddy, but its not your or my personal obligation to save the world which is a good thing since we couldn't no matter how bad we want to. D started something with the intention of making it into a CIRCUS, not asking for help or sharing a personal story of being targeted.

Keep your stick on the ice here Mike

He said/she said is always impossible. I agree with Mike on erring on the side of caution in regard to privacy. Not a big deal to delete a few posts... and let the parties talk by PM if they so desire any further contact with each other.

What did I miss here?

EDIT: oh, I get it. Not worth touching on but:

1. An unidentified member -- call him/her "D" -- followed another member "T" from another board to here and D accused T of going after him/her in real life. T completely denied involvement.

Note that D DID NOT present him/herself as being snitchjacketed but was instead pursuing a personal vendetta against T. All of this came out of nowhere.

Your defense of your friends and comrades is admirable Mike, but what the hell are you gonna do with a situation like that? *Especially* when the accuser, D, is "sure" it must have been T who did it, despite presenting not a shred of proof other than his/her own suspicions and some loose conjecture

Sorry, buddy, but its not your or my personal obligation to save the world which is a good thing since we couldn't no matter how bad we want to. D started something with the intention of making it into a CIRCUS, not asking for help or sharing a personal story of being targeted.

Keep your stick on the ice here Mike






No chance that you are misreading this?

Sorry Kid, I studied the thread before I deleted it. It did not come down the way you are imagining that it did.

None of your assertions are accurate, and that stuff was not in the initial post, back before the fur started flying. The message was this: "there may be leaks and infiltrators over there, and that caused real consequences for me in real life." Now, whether or not that is true, your response would have been no different no matter whether or not it were true.

You dismissed the need for trust, yet had someone you know better posted that you probably would have responded differently.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are people at PI who would damage some of us offline if they could find a way to do that. Dismissing that with "oh they are emotional, that is a bunch of drama" and "oh Mike is being paranoid" is bullshit. You start with the idea that people are being emotional and paranoid, and then set up a self-fulfilling prophecy. People get pissed when you dismiss what they are saying as emotionalism and paranoia. That does not mean that you were right when you initially dismissed them for emotionalism and paranoia.

Saying "fuck you" and leaving is the sane response to the naive and myopic reaction here.

It is not the responsibility of the other person to control your spur-of-the-moment assessments or impressions of them. You are talking about some caricature in your mind that you created in the absence of any evidence to support it.

As to "what we are going to do about it" - by which I think you mean there is nothing to do about it and we should not be bothered anyway - I think we need to be alert to that happening, be aware of possible vulnerabilities and close them off, and we need to be willing to hear a person when they complain about being at risk. How you can see this as merely some sort of childish Internet bickering, and a function of some neurotic people or something, is a complete mystery to me.

Instead, what we got as "oh that is not a person we should listen to - probably crazy or something." I know for a fact that this is not true.

I don't remember every post that was exchanged and I gather they are now deleted. Say that D wasn't being childish or neurotic. I'll go along with that line despite whatever reservations I may have. Assuming that, what changes?

Again, I don't remember every little detail, but the accusation wasn't that the site involved had a leak, but that T specifically had targeted D for whatever reason. This was backed up with a tenuous chain of conjecture about credit card records or something like that.

I am injecting no innuendo here btw but if you're out to martyr D you're higher than a kite.

Past that, I have no idea what the point of bringing this up could be

I don't remember every post that was exchanged and I gather they are now deleted. Say that D wasn't being childish or neurotic. I'll go along with that line despite whatever reservations I may have. Assuming that, what changes?

Again, I don't remember every little detail, but the accusation wasn't that the site involved had a leak, but that T specifically had targeted D for whatever reason. This was backed up with a tenuous chain of conjecture about credit card records or something like that.

I am injecting no innuendo here btw but if you're out to martyr D you're higher than a kite.

Past that, I have no idea what the point of bringing this up could be



You misread it.

"...the accusation wasn't that the site involved had a leak, but that T specifically had targeted D for whatever reason. "

Nope. The opening post was quite clear, and absolutely said that the site had a leak and absolutely did not accuse Tin, and did not raise any specter of "for whatever reason" nor claim any persecution. Nor was any of it childish or neurotic.

I don't remember every post that was exchanged and I gather they are now deleted. Say that D wasn't being childish or neurotic. I'll go along with that line despite whatever reservations I may have. Assuming that, what changes?

Again, I don't remember every little detail, but the accusation wasn't that the site involved had a leak, but that T specifically had targeted D for whatever reason. This was backed up with a tenuous chain of conjecture about credit card records or something like that.

I am injecting no innuendo here btw but if you're out to martyr D you're higher than a kite.

Past that, I have no idea what the point of bringing this up could be



You misread it.

"...the accusation wasn't that the site involved had a leak, but that T specifically had targeted D for whatever reason. "

Nope. The opening post was quite clear, and absolutely said that the site had a leak and absolutely did not accuse Tin, and did not raise any specter of "for whatever reason" nor claim any persecution. Nor was any of it childish or neurotic.


OK, I don't think it so clear, but I concede the point. How should we have handled it differently?