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choppedliver
03-19-2009, 07:05 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/12/philosophy/print



Move over Jacko, Idea of Communism is hottest ticket in town this weekend

* Duncan Campbell
* guardian.co.uk, Thursday 12 March 2009 18.03 GMT
* larger | smaller
* Article history

The hottest ticket in London this weekend is not for a pop singer or a football match but for a conference on communism which brings together some of the world's leading Marxist academics. The international financial crisis has led to a resurgence of interest in a philosophy that many claimed had been buried with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Such has been the interest in the conference, entitled On the Idea of Communism, being staged at London university's Birkbeck college from tomorrow, that the venue has been changed three times to accommodate the extra demand and is sold out. Participants are flying in from the US, Latin America, Africa and Australia to hear from some of the world's big hitters on the subject.

One of the organisers, the Slovenian philosopher and writer, Slavoj Zizek, has emphasised that the purpose of the gathering is not to "deal with practico-political questions of how to analyse the latest economic, political, and military troubles, or how to organise a new political movement". He added: "more radical questioning is needed today – this is a meeting of philosophers who will deal with communism as a philosophical concept, advocating a precise and strong thesis: from Plato onwards, communism is the only political idea worthy of a philosopher."

Although the conference seems particularly timely, it was planned last summer, well before the scale of the current economic collapse had become apparent.

"The response has taken us by surprise," said Costas Douzinas, director of the Birkbeck institute for the humanities, which is hosting the three-day event. "It must be related to the wider political context. There is a sense that we have to start thinking again."

He said that the gathering was about the meaning of communism and speakers had indicated that they would be very critical of the Soviet model. Among the questions to be addressed is whether "communism is still the name to be used to designate the horizon of radical emancipatory projects".

The participants include the radical Italian writer and academic, Toni Negri, who was once sentenced to a long prison term for "insurrection against the state" in Italy, Terry Eagleton and the French philosopher, Alain Badiou, author of the recent book on the French president, The Meaning of Sarkozy. Other speakers include Michael Hardt, Gianni Vattimo, Bruno Bosteels from Cornell university, Alessandro Russo, Judith Balso, and Alberto Toscano.

"The communist hypothesis remains the good one, I do not see any other," said Badiou, in his foreword to the conference programme. "If we have to abandon this hypothesis, then it is no longer worth doing anything at all in the field of collective action. Without the horizon of communism, without this idea, there is nothing in the historical and political becoming of any interest to a philosopher. Let everyone bother about his own affairs, and let us stop talking about it... what is imposed on us as a task, even as a philosophical obligation, is to help a new mode of existence of the hypothesis to deploy itself."

After the event:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/16/communism-philosophy-commun
ist-party/print


Communism: a viable alternative?

As the epoch of liberal capitalism and the free market falls apart, the question of an alternative must be re-opened
Comments (…)

* Bernard Keenan
*
o Bernard Keenan
o guardian.co.uk, Monday 16 March 2009 19.00 GMT
o larger | smaller
o Article history

Let's get one thing out of the way to begin with: history is back in fashion. A generation on from Francis Fukuyama's claim that the fall of the Soviet Union marked the "end of history", the epoch of liberal capitalism and the free market fell apart in spectacular style during a few short months last autumn. As jobs disappear and anger rises, the bare bones of ideology that prop up the present system are exposed.

The speedy panic with which our governments agreed to throw billions of pounds away to restore "confidence" suggests that the dream is over and we are awakening to a strange new socialism, in which an increasingly authoritarian government has taken public control of financial capitalism in order to save it from itself. We read today that equal pay reviews no longer matter. Migrants are left to starve on the streets as the government heads off the far right by pandering to it. And so it's precisely now that the question of an alternative must be re-opened.

Against this backdrop, Birkbeck College this weekend hosted a symposium on the idea of communism. Originally planned as a meeting of philosophers and those who enjoy hearing their debates, the unexpected material circumstances of history instead gave the event a genuine sense of urgency. Even the BBC came to hear Slavoj Zizek, Alain Badiou, Jacques Ranciere, Michael Hardt, Toni Negri, and others speaking on the possibilities and challenges of reinventing the communist ideal today.

The conference was happily free of dogmatism. No one on the stage was there to represent a particular party or doctrine. There were disagreements, but at heart was a simple proposition. Communism is an idea that has been with us in different forms for thousands of years, as Terry Eagleton pointed out. The task is now to think what the concepts of egalitarian voluntarism, self-organisation, common ownership of common means of production, abolition of class-structured society, and freedom from state power can mean today.

It's a bold statement, declaring oneself a communist. The cultural revolutions of 1968 were the beginning of the end of the party-state, when programmatic communism was replaced by a more postmodern, abstract idea of "the left". Freedom of thought and nomadic thought undid the old certainties of Marxist political knowledge. No one has quite figured out how to replace them, and this perhaps more than anything else can account for the current weakness of the left, even as capitalism is in crisis: what is to be done?

First, the question of the role of the state and the economy remains open. While Judith Balso, Toni Negri and Alain Badiou insist on creating new political movements at a distance from the state, Zizek and Bruno Bosteels point to the experiences of Bolivia and Venezuela as contemporary proof that by taking power, a progressive radical movement can survive even against overwhelming reactionary forces. For Zizek, to reject the idea of a revolutionary state in the absence of a clear alternative is a cop-out.

However, such considerations all seem to beg the question of how to organise. It is difficult to imagine a new Communist party, but without one, the idea of communism remains just that: a quasi-religious article of faith. This was perhaps Eagleton's point when he observed that it is not so difficult to imagine a communism of scarcity, foisted upon us by disaster rather than rapture.

Perhaps the true question is: why communism? It does no harm to remember that for Marx, communism was not something anachronistic and programmatic. Marx insisted on the simple id

ea that we and no one else are responsible for remaking the world. Communism can only be enacted from what really exists. The party-states attempted to bend society to match some abstract idea. A true philosophy of communism cannot provide all the answers, because it has not yet encountered the problems.

Separating the promise of communism from the disasters of the 20th century is no easy task. But it feels necessary. Already we know that choices will have to be made and sides taken. Impending ecological disaster suggests that this could be our last chance to do so. If another world is possible, it will happen in action, not abstract theory. The first choice is very simple: to begin.
* guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2009

anaxarchos
03-19-2009, 08:17 PM
This is pretty much a rogues gallery of "communists": Zizek, Badiou, Negri, etal.

The real key though is that the conference was scheduled before the worldwide economic collapse. What's really going on here is practical proof, of the narrowest kind, that ideas don't enjoy the slightest independence from real events.

Spend two decades claiming the end of Communism, as an idea, and you get one little worlwide-economic-depression and all that work goes to hell in a handbasket.

O' course, there will be some Zizek-Badiou-Negri-I-am-a-tool Communism for a while - a "non-authoritarian" kind - but, in the end it won't matter. Like New Leftism in the 1960s which did everything in its power to not contradict the Joe McCarthy catechism, it will start lame but in the end the weakness won't matter.

"This is an anti-communist gathering..."

"Don't care what kinda communism it is as long as I get me some..."

choppedliver
03-19-2009, 09:22 PM
Thanks for the feedback. :) So how 'bout this one? right up the road 40 miles from me, kinda late for this early bird, but looking for recs?

MARX IS BACK!
How Socialist Ideas Can Change The World


8PM Monday April 6th
Campus Center Room 375
SUNY Albany - Uptown Campus

They said that Marx was dead. then came the realities of globalization. Then came the endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then came the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Now, Marx's ideas seem to explain the world a lot better than what you see on Fox News.

But Marx also predicted that the inequalities of capitalism would give rise to resistance. And we've only just begun to see the emergence of a new generation of struggles, from protests for immigrant rights, to the factory occupations of workers in Chicago, to the massive outpouring of solidarity with the people of Gaza and Palestine.

Socialists believe that these struggles can be joined to fight for a different type of society. Come to a discussion of Marx's ideas and how they apply to today. As Marx himself said, "philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point is to change it!"


Sponsored by Albany branch of the International Socialist Organization, publishers of Socialist Worker newspaper.
Co Sponsored by UA Students For Worker's Rights


Featuring Ashley Smith, a member of the editorial board of the International Socialist Review. He has written numerous articles for the ISR as well as SocialistWorker. Many of his articles have been run on Z-Net, DissidentVoice and Counterpunch.

He is the author, with Helen Scott, of "Behind Aristide's Fall: What Led to the Coup?" He is the current Northeast organizer of the International Socialist Organization, and serves on the Steering Committee of the Vermont Chapter of the National Writers Union.



For more information, please contact: Email:
ISOAlbany@gmail.com Phone: (518) 677-1046

TBF
03-19-2009, 09:41 PM
You're lucky you get events like that Mary. Down here it's rodeo month. All rodeo, all the time. I'm not sure that I'm allowed to think about anything else. :D

anaxarchos
03-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Thanks for the feedback. :) So how 'bout this one? right up the road 40 miles from me, kinda late for this early bird, but looking for recs?

MARX IS BACK!
How Socialist Ideas Can Change The World


8PM Monday April 6th
Campus Center Room 375
SUNY Albany - Uptown Campus

They said that Marx was dead. then came the realities of globalization. Then came the endless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then came the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Now, Marx's ideas seem to explain the world a lot better than what you see on Fox News.

But Marx also predicted that the inequalities of capitalism would give rise to resistance. And we've only just begun to see the emergence of a new generation of struggles, from protests for immigrant rights, to the factory occupations of workers in Chicago, to the massive outpouring of solidarity with the people of Gaza and Palestine.

Socialists believe that these struggles can be joined to fight for a different type of society. Come to a discussion of Marx's ideas and how they apply to today. As Marx himself said, "philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point is to change it!"


Sponsored by Albany branch of the International Socialist Organization, publishers of Socialist Worker newspaper.
Co Sponsored by UA Students For Worker's Rights


Featuring Ashley Smith, a member of the editorial board of the International Socialist Review. He has written numerous articles for the ISR as well as SocialistWorker. Many of his articles have been run on Z-Net, DissidentVoice and Counterpunch.

He is the author, with Helen Scott, of "Behind Aristide's Fall: What Led to the Coup?" He is the current Northeast organizer of the International Socialist Organization, and serves on the Steering Committee of the Vermont Chapter of the National Writers Union.



For more information, please contact: Email:
ISOAlbany@gmail.com Phone: (518) 677-1046




"Don't care what kinda communism it is as long as I get me some..."

choppedliver
03-20-2009, 06:28 AM
"Don't care what kinda communism it is as long as I get me some..."


:) I got me a real life group!! will share lots from there..

chlamor
03-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Seems like just gettin' folks talkin' and harnessing what is a very deep, general sense that "somethings terribly wrong" is the pressing need at this point.

Do wonder about how this all gets presented with the likes of Zizek being considered a "legitimizing voice" for socialism.

Hey anax have you seen this?

BASIS OF CONTEMPORARY CRITICAL THEORY OF CAPITALISM

by Dunja & Ljubodrag Simonovic

6/21/06



[Here's a great explanation of how advanced Waste Capitalism works--how it wastes every thing and everyone in the name of progress. Adorno and Benjamin had serious doubts about the bourgeois concept of 'progress'. I refuse to use the French term for the continuous tenses in English, 'les temps progressif', as an expression of my doubts that the production team working on this unhappy project we call 'The New American Century' is really improving anything at all with its shock'n awful rewrites. Simonovic writes in Serbo-Croation--yeah, I know, you miserable Ustasi fuck, you blue-eyed jihadist tool, you war-loving petty nationalist mark, but that's what it was called when there was a Yugoslavia and that's what I'll call the language until there's another Yugoslavia! This English translation has passed through a real linguistic Gitmo/Abu Ghraib gauntlet, edited to within an inch of its life. But I think Simonovic's voice is important, and those of you who share my feelings on this will listen through his Serbian accent (yebega) in this very Frankfurtian analysis of the hopeless falsity of our current consciousness. And may I repeat what an honor it is to have exceeded our bandwidth, and gotten CM/P kicked into a higher bracket, with Simonovic's writing.--Mick Collins]

Introduction to the book “A New World is Possible”, pub. 2005 by Dunja and Ljubodrag Simonovic, Belgrade (Serbia). E-mail: simonovic@simonovic.info

The final stage of a mortal combat between mankind and capitalism is in progress. A specificity of capitalism is that, in contrast to “classical” barbarism (which is of a destructive, murderous and plundering nature), it annihilates life by creating a “new world” – a “technical civilization” and an adequate, dehumanized and denaturalized man. Capitalism has eradicated the man from his (natural) environment and has cut off the roots through which he had drawn life-creating force. Cities are “gardens” of capitalism where degenerated creatures “grow”. Dog excrement, gasoline and sewerage stench, glaring advertisements and police car rotating lights that howl through the night – this is the environment of the “free world” man. By destroying the natural environment capitalism creates increasingly extreme climatic conditions in which the man is struggling harder and harder to survive – and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being. “Humanization of life” is being limited to creation of micro-climatic conditions, of special capitalistic incubators – completely commercialized artificial living conditions to which degenerated people are appropriate.

The most dramatic truth is: capitalism can survive the death of man as a human and biological being. For capitalism a “traditional man” is merely a temporary means of its own reproduction. “Consumer-man” represents a transitional phase in the capitalism-caused process of mutation of man towards the “highest” form of capitalistic man: a robot-man. “Terminators” and other robotized freaks which are products of the Hollywood entertainment industry which creates a “vision of the future” degenerated in a capitalist manner, incarnate creative powers, alienated from the man, which become vehicles for destruction of man and life. A new “super race” of robotized humanoids is being created, which should clash with “traditional mankind”, meaning with people capable of loving, thinking, daydreaming, fighting for freedom and survival – and impose their rule over the Earth. Instead of the new world, the “new man” is being created – who has been reduced to a level of humanity which cannot jeopardize the ruling order.

Science and technology have become the basic lever of capital for the destruction of the world and the creation of “technical civilization”. It is not only about destruction achieved by the use of technical means. It is about technicization of social institutions, of interpersonal relations, of the human body. Increasing transformation of nature into a surrogate of “nature”, increasing dehumanization of the society and increasing denaturalization of man are direct consequences of capital’s effort, within an increasingly merciless global economic war, to achieve complete commercialization of both natural and the social environment. The optimism of the Enlightenment could hardly be unreservedly supported nowadays, the notion of Marx that man imposes on himself only such tasks as he can solve, particularly the optimism based on the myth of the “omnipotence” of science and technology. The race for profits has already caused irreparable and still unpredictable damage to both man and his environment. By the creation of “consumer society”, which means through the transition of capitalism into a phase of pure destruction, such a qualitative rise in destruction of nature and mankind has been performed that life on the planet is literally facing a “countdown”. Instead of the “withering away” (Engels) of institutions of the capitalist society, the withering away of life is taking place. The thesis of conservative bourgeois theoreticians, according to which the history of mankind ends with capitalism, becomes more and more convincing. Unless it is prevented, capitalism will, already by the beginning of the third millennium, finish off what remains of the world.

Scientists are a human form in which capitalism instrumentalizes natural forces in order to control men and nature. They have been reduced to specialty-idiots who, in a technical world, where everything operates by “pressing a button” and where “everything is under control”, see an ideal world that should be longed for, and in a machine-man the “culmination of progress”. Scientists, for whom “obtaining expertise” is paid for with their humanity, perceive people as enemies and machines as “friends”. The same way profit and not man is essential to capitalists, “progress” and not man is essential to scientists – progress being another name for profit, and “profit” being another name for destruction. “The technical intelligentsia” are mutilated people not able to express their humanity. Fear of people transforms into hatred of people. They consciously deprive themselves of all those features that make them men, and they escape into a technical world where they can “experiment” with machines, people, the living world.… The Power of science and technology becomes the power of manipulation and destruction. For them the technical world becomes the “natural” world and the highest esthetic challenge, like Eiffel’s tower, this capitalistic Tyrannosaurus, which symbolizes domination of “technical civilization” over man.

<snip>

http://thomaspainescorner.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/basis-of-contemporary-critical-theory-of-capitalism/

I imagine some of this stuff must make you cringe a wee bit Mr. anax.

Anyhoo the time is upon us I'd say.

Whatcha' y'all gonna do about it?

anaxarchos
03-20-2009, 03:23 PM
I imagine some of this stuff must make you cringe a wee bit Mr. anax.

Anyhoo the time is upon us I'd say.

Whatcha' y'all gonna do about it?


All of it makes me cringe a lot... but not as much as U.S. Liberals and European Social Democrats and French police informers.

What can I tell ya? I think it is all alienated nonsense but the root of that alienation is very real. I think these two are wrong but I don't see them as showing up in the middle of the night to throw me in the gaol. I do see exactly that from various libertarians, Progressives, lovers of organic foods, and Mr. Obama his-self... the last with two cute kids, a smart SO, and an endearing wisecrack in tow.

Chlams, I'm actually much worse than I sound, as the Kid has figured out. I not only think these two are wrong but I presume that I can guess what kinda wrong they are (actual words optional). I kinda been hearing the same story out of Yugoslavia since Djilas... ain't so much ethnic as circumstantial. Much like French Filosophers...

You are what you eat.

As far as this being the time... yes. But, gotta figure an angle on building REAL mass organizations. I haven't convinced myself that EFCA is gonna "do it". There is a lot of match-lighting going on (all of it good), but I ain't seen no prairie fires yet.

Kid of the Black Hole
03-20-2009, 03:41 PM
I imagine some of this stuff must make you cringe a wee bit Mr. anax.

Anyhoo the time is upon us I'd say.

Whatcha' y'all gonna do about it?


All of it makes me cringe a lot... but not as much as U.S. Liberals and European Social Democrats and French police informers.

What can I tell ya? I think it is all alienated nonsense but the root of that alienation is very real. I think these two are wrong but I don't see them as showing up in the middle of the night to throw me in the gaol. I do see exactly that from various libertarians, Progressives, lovers of organic foods, and Mr. Obama his-self... the last with two cute kids, a smart SO, and an endearing wisecrack in tow.

Chlams, I'm actually much worse than I sound, as the Kid has figured out. I not only think these two are wrong but I presume that I can guess what kinda wrong they are (actual words optional). I kinda been hearing the same story out of Yugoslavia since Djilas... ain't so much ethnic as circumstantial. Much like French Filosophers...

You are what you eat.

As far as this being the time... yes. But, gotta figure an angle on building REAL mass organizations. I haven't convinced myself that EFCA is gonna "do it". There is a lot of match-lighting going on (all of it good), but I ain't seen no prairie fires yet.





I haven't convinced myself that EFCA is gonna happen yet.

And hey, give Mick Collins some credit for being right about one thing: hes some kinda miserable fuck


Simonovic writes in Serbo-Croation--yeah, I know, you miserable Ustasi fuck, you blue-eyed jihadist tool, you war-loving petty nationalist mark, but that's what it was called when there was a Yugoslavia and that's what I'll call the language until there's another Yugoslavia!

anaxarchos
03-20-2009, 05:22 PM
I imagine some of this stuff must make you cringe a wee bit Mr. anax.

Anyhoo the time is upon us I'd say.

Whatcha' y'all gonna do about it?


All of it makes me cringe a lot... but not as much as U.S. Liberals and European Social Democrats and French police informers.

What can I tell ya? I think it is all alienated nonsense but the root of that alienation is very real. I think these two are wrong but I don't see them as showing up in the middle of the night to throw me in the gaol. I do see exactly that from various libertarians, Progressives, lovers of organic foods, and Mr. Obama his-self... the last with two cute kids, a smart SO, and an endearing wisecrack in tow.

Chlams, I'm actually much worse than I sound, as the Kid has figured out. I not only think these two are wrong but I presume that I can guess what kinda wrong they are (actual words optional). I kinda been hearing the same story out of Yugoslavia since Djilas... ain't so much ethnic as circumstantial. Much like French Filosophers...

You are what you eat.

As far as this being the time... yes. But, gotta figure an angle on building REAL mass organizations. I haven't convinced myself that EFCA is gonna "do it". There is a lot of match-lighting going on (all of it good), but I ain't seen no prairie fires yet.






Just to be clear... the social criticism is dead on.

"Science and technology have become the basic lever of capital for the destruction of the world and the creation of “technical civilization”. " - Capital ("commercialization") has become the basic lever of capital for the destruction of the world. Sure they use "Science and technology". They also use charity, mouth wash, soap suds, and derivatives. Everything to commercial purpose.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with this (only semantic quibbles are really possible): Cities are “gardens” of capitalism where degenerated creatures “grow”. Dog excrement, gasoline and sewerage stench, glaring advertisements and police car rotating lights that howl through the night – this is the environment of the “free world” man. By destroying the natural environment capitalism creates increasingly extreme climatic conditions in which the man is struggling harder and harder to survive – and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

blindpig
03-20-2009, 05:45 PM
Just to be clear... the social criticism is dead on.

"Science and technology have become the basic lever of capital for the destruction of the world and the creation of “technical civilization”. " - Capital ("commercialization") has become the basic lever of capital for the destruction of the world. Sure they use "Science and technology". They also use charity, mouth wash, soap suds, and derivatives. Everything to commercial purpose.

On the other hand, it's hard to argue with this (only semantic quibbles are really possible): Cities are “gardens” of capitalism where degenerated creatures “grow”. Dog excrement, gasoline and sewerage stench, glaring advertisements and police car rotating lights that howl through the night – this is the environment of the “free world” man. By destroying the natural environment capitalism creates increasingly extreme climatic conditions in which the man is struggling harder and harder to survive – and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

You'll sure as hell not get any argument from me on that. Besides being true, the ecosocialist argument (I think it fair to call it that) is very apparent and 'accessible'.

Kid of the Black Hole
03-20-2009, 08:09 PM
and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

is the first part of that really true?

blindpig
03-20-2009, 09:57 PM
and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

is the first part of that really true?


There's a case to be made. Considering how the very rich can and do burn up the labor of an multitude at the drop of a hat, that's not only artifical, it's surreal. Why do we put up with this kind of shit?

anaxarchos
03-20-2009, 11:51 PM
and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

is the first part of that really true?


There's a case to be made. Considering how the very rich can and do burn up the labor of an multitude at the drop of a hat, that's not only artifical, it's surreal. Why do we put up with this kind of shit?


See, that is the advantage of somewhat vague language. I read something different into it.

At the end of medieval England, the peasants and cultivators were cleared from the land and replaced with sheep. In place of the many stood the few, with the many populating the cities with newly "free" labor. In turn, though, the sheep runs were displaced by "deer forests" - private hunting reserves for the increasingly rich "capitalists" of the towns. The problem was that the "forests" had no trees, at least initially. The land was cleared for cultivation, "cleared" again for sheep, and finally, "re-grown", so that the rich alone could engage in nostalgia for their lost pastoral past...

I was thinkin' something like that.

Kid of the Black Hole
03-21-2009, 12:54 AM
and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

is the first part of that really true?


There's a case to be made. Considering how the very rich can and do burn up the labor of an multitude at the drop of a hat, that's not only artifical, it's surreal. Why do we put up with this kind of shit?


See, that is the advantage of somewhat vague language. I read something different into it.

At the end of medieval England, the peasants and cultivators were cleared from the land and replaced with sheep. In place of the many stood the few, with the many populating the cities with newly "free" labor. In turn, though, the sheep runs were displaced by "deer forests" - private hunting reserves for the increasingly rich "capitalists" of the towns. The problem was that the "forests" had no trees, at least initially. The land was cleared for cultivation, "cleared" again for sheep, and finally, "re-grown", so that the rich alone could engage in nostalgia for their lost pastoral past...

I was thinkin' something like that.



yeah i was reading it differently than either of you guys

blindpig
03-21-2009, 07:36 AM
[quote]and creates artificial living conditions accessible solely to the richest layer of population, which cause definitive degeneration of man as a natural being.

is the first part of that really true?


There's a case to be made. Considering how the very rich can and do burn up the labor of an multitude at the drop of a hat, that's not only artifical, it's surreal. Why do we put up with this kind of shit?


See, that is the advantage of somewhat vague language. I read something different into it.

At the end of medieval England, the peasants and cultivators were cleared from the land and replaced with sheep. In place of the many stood the few, with the many populating the cities with newly "free" labor. In turn, though, the sheep runs were displaced by "deer forests" - private hunting reserves for the increasingly rich "capitalists" of the towns. The problem was that the "forests" had no trees, at least initially. The land was cleared for cultivation, "cleared" again for sheep, and finally, "re-grown", so that the rich alone could engage in nostalgia for their lost pastoral past...

I was thinkin' something like that.

[/quote
]
Yeah, well, I read those chapters of Kapital just yesterday morning and you're right, very applicable, guess I just haven't integrated it into my thought processes . Good reading, Marx is merciless, like a prosecuting attorney he just piles up the evidence until the conclusion is unavoidable.