Hello all, relatively new here.

Does anyone else feel that by being part of the American system, they're part of the problem?

I am a community college student in an affluent suburban area. My father is a doctor, both my parents are "moderate" Democrats, and we live a comfortable life. I went to a private high school, and my family is church-going. And we use a lot of products of the corporate consumer culture.

I feel like I'm stuck in a system where loyalty to the system, regardless of morals or ethics, is rewarded, and it just feels ridiculously hypocritical and unnatural. They tell me to go to college and get a degree so that I can go to graduate school to get another degree, so that I can become a "productive member of society." Well, what the hell does that mean?

I hate this morally bankrupt capitalist exploitation society, and I really would like no part of it.

What can I do to help others, to help those who weren't as fortunate as me, and to somehow undermine the system? Because I feel that if I'm not part of the solution, then I am part of the problem.

You are not "part of the problem" because the problem is not personal. I hereby grant you absolution. Now, learn some shit, get rid of the baggage they loaded on your back in that "affluent suburb", get your hands dirty (somehow), become a Commie and overthrow the fucker... That's all there is to it (and if there are not enough of us, get some friends and rinse, repeat).

...And don't go to work for Goldman or for military intelligence, 'cause then you will be part of the problem. Other than that, there is no easy way and there ain't no way to "get away" ...except personally ...and it ain't personal.

I do not want to work for any of those horrific agencies like Goldman et al.

I will probably be an artist or activist of some sort.

Affluent suburban Doctors' kids from private schools rarely go that route.

Maybe you're already choosing a different path?

I really don't know what I want to do.

Two things to chew on

1. the guilt-trip thing is stupid. I always make the same reference, but check out Simone Weil. I don't know how noteworthy she really is, but she starved herself almost to death in solidarity with those who didn't have food (the troops I think, but the details are less important than the gist of the anecdote).

Point being, everyone's a "hypocrite" unless you turn to personal asceticism, which in turn is just a very inward looking form of escapism.

Fuck that shit man, its a mind trap.

2. OK, your parents have some money. Try NOT becoming a "productive member of society" for a while and see how long it is before you go from feeling like part of the problem to just feeling the problem.

Almost no one is bulletproof (and if you want to be, its not to late to go work for Goldman, possibly..)

3. Don't know how old you are, and maybe this has already happened for you, but at some point I went from giving a shit about next to nothing to just digging into anything I could get my teeth, paws or eyeballs on. (mostly that is figurative)

As a friend says, Read or bleed. Learn or burn.

That's pretty much where I was 20 years ago with some cosmetic differences. :) Now instead of a community college student, I'm a high school teacher. My parents still nudge me and I'm almost 40. Community college is a good place to figure stuff out. I don't know what your parents mean by "productive member of society" but I suspect when mine said it they just hoped I'd eventually move out and be able to feed myself.

You are entering a period of life where big weird feelings will be the norm. But this is a good group of people here. Read, work, study things that feel like they talk to you. Write some shit. Post it here. Get a sketchbook, draw some shit. Don't be afraid if it is dumb, stupid or ugly.

Capitalism won't be eradicated through shopping choices and other personal lifestyle adjustments. There's some good threads about that here. That's all I can think of for now.

I didn't come from an affluent family, I was raised to go to prison with my brother and friends. I joined the Marines instead, hated it but followed the rules and did well, shot people with a Gau 2/B in El Salvador, then got out and went to college. The professors I followed most were all ascetics, including my history professor, who was still driving a beat-up VW bus with flowers on it in 1980.

Dr. Bob Elam (The actor, Jack Elam's, younger brother). American History according to Bob Elam: (Pacing back and forth in the auditorium, stroking his beard, other hand resting on his man purse.) "American history is this--You build a bomb; you use that bomb; there is an instant market for more bombs; and that is good for business."

Anyhow, I went on in pursuit of my plan to become a cool, ascetic biology professor, growing my own oyster mushrooms on straw bales and raising free range chickens, but three children and the expenses of living got in the way, so thirty years, two MS degrees, three children, and four grandchildren later I'm an environmental and safety engineer working for a (decent) wage.

And yes, at 54, I feel like part of the problem. On the other hand, my job allows me to intervene on behalf of both the environment and labor. I've even been asked to leave a job site by one of our company's business partners because I learned enough Chamoru to speak to the locals and it made the boss nervous.

I'm getting a crash course in socialism here on PI. I'm learning how I should feel; what I should be doing. Nobody's told me how to feed my family and keep a roof over our heads without a salary, but they do have me feeling guilty for earning one. I even got a bonus this year. You can imagine how shitty that feels now.

But this is about you. So, don't do what I did or you'll be asking the same question you're asking now in thirty years. Better you're asking them now.

but I didn't like being poor so I stayed in school and excelled in the corporate world. Now I am home with small children while my husband makes money (it is his turn for awhile, I put him through law school). I am hoping there are more people like us in every suburb across America - people who are fed up and ready for real change, not slogans. As Anax said, it's beyond the lifestyle choices. A few people buying a Prius is diddly-squat, we need to band together to fight. That is the only way out. I'm glad you're here.

no one is writing to you on this thread to air their personal drama. That is an important part of what I'm trying to convey you. Anax presents it as killing egotism but sometimes it feels like it is a simple matter of humility.

The point is that its not about ME..or about you. Big picture, we're both insanely well off and extremely fortunate. But even if that weren't so, our own individual problems, hang-ups, pre/misconceptions, predispositions, and bitches factor into things not at all.

If any of that stuff mattered, we could just rename this place NavelGazing.org and be done with.

It would be nice if we could, as has been hypothesized about the ancient Mayans, walk away from our insane ruling class and re-establish a more human social arrangement. That option is not available, capital consumes the globe. Yet we must eat, we must live in this nightmare of capitalism if only that we may throw it down.

So don't sweat the small stuff because while we are implicated by being members of the dominant society we are also it's victims, this all accidents of birth. All that we can do is seek to correct this situation but we gotta figure out how to do that first.

Ya want some guilt, try my pariah occupation. While being aware of the above, thanks to my friends here, I am fully aware of the crap I do every day, if anything it fires my anger.

Prospero -

Nobody here is trying to make anyone feel bad about earning a salary - whether it's a lot or a little. How do you think we all make our own livings? We all do it differently. No one is judging you. No one else telling you how to 'feel'. Geez. If anything we're trying to make people 'think' differently than they do, but even that isn't quite true...

We are definitely trying to keep discussion and debate intellectually honest, which is particularly difficult because not only are we not taught critical thinking by our society, we are taught to believe things that are obviously untrue. Those things become embedded in how we think and it is hard to get past that. It is hard not to personalize everything because we are taught that (financial) success or failure reflects on our character, that it is all about personal responsibility.

But all evidence points to the fact that there are systemic reasons why so few can succeed. That doesn't make the more successful among us 'guilty' of anything, just lucky, for the most part.

Anyway, my goal in posting this isn't to re-spark the same circular debates we've been having on this board lately, but to hopefully help you understand that no one here is gonna judge you for making a living and taking care of your family. Maybe you are just trying to be cheeky about feeling bad about your bonus or whatever, making a point or something, but no one here gives a crap. If you honestly feel bad about it, that comes from you, not us.

If you think people are trying to make you feel guilty, you've completely missed the point. Does your personal situation keep you from demonstrating and expressing solidarity with the international working class or not?

How and where you express it, is apparently limited by the need for not being exposed to your bosses. That means nothing to me. You got to do what you got to do in this insane country. Nothing wrong with taking your shots where you can and laying low when you can't.

The trouble I have is that it seems that you project your current stability into the future, as if the social and economic relationships that brought you this stability are the only way to organize society for the benefit of future generations.

You're doing nothing wrong. Looking at it globally, you're one of the winners. No need to feel guilty, but defending the status quo keeps all the rest of us from winning.

Isn't that the truth... The one thing you learn when you sit in the boardroom (especially if you didn't grow up with all the bells and whistles) is that it is even worse than you ever could have dreamed. And it is not because certain folks are more "greedy" than others, it's that the game rewards that kind of nonsense. That's why it's a systemic problem, and the system has to go.

I don't think anyone here is trying to make you feel guilty and I don't think there is any reason for you to feel guilty.

Feed your family and keep a roof over their heads - of course. What is there to feel guilty about in regards to that? It is admirable.

I came to the realization that I had been carrying water for management in my farm advocacy work without being fully aware that I was. Walking around the farms, I realized that the workers saw me as management, and that they were right. I also came to the realization that the owners, as owners, even though they might be friends, did not care about what happened to me - could not care and still be successful owners. Big wake up call there. This is so much bigger than "personal choice" and individual circumstances. It is insidious and all-pervasive. We are all trapped in this system.

That is so true Mike. It is amazing when you hear all the political types (in both parties) running around talking about freedom. What freedom?

the commentary certainly is challenging my ways of thinking. So, I feel analyzed but not judged. Does that make sense.

I suspect I'm not alone in this group in that my identity isn't locked up in what I do to make money. My plan was that it would be, but it didn't go that way. It hasn't helped my career that it isn't. They can tell someone who drank the Kool Aid from someone who didn't.

So, it sounds like we are insurgents, working in a system we don't support for pragmatic reasons, but looking and working for an alternative in our own ways.

There's no doubt in my mind that the reasons so few succeed are systemic, and that the system is not accidental but by design.

I wasn't being cheeky about the bonus. Our son has been unemployed for over a year, they are expecting a baby, and we cashed out a bunch of retirement accounts to help them out. The bonus and more went to pay the taxes and penalties--$12K to the IRS. I was making a bad joke alluding to the crazy bonuses Wall Street gets.

I might be trying to understand it, looking for what comes naturally and what is strictly an artifact of culture.

Solidarity isn't my problem. I remember where I came from, I have no sense of security that the status quo will last, and I see the way others live all around me.

As I said in another post, I feel more in common with peasants in Venezuela than I do with the corporate people I work with or our elected "leaders." The salary I make puts me far closer to the rest of the working class than it does to the ruling class.

The the present doesn't feel at all stable to me. We had good advice to get our retirement savings out of stocks, so we didn't lose half of it like most people. On the other hand, it all had to be cashed out to help family, so it's 100% gone anyhow. That doesn't sound real stable to me. It's fragile and artificial.

Thanks for the comments. Something to build on.

And there's no reason beyond simple luck that it isn't me. When the company I worked for in Nebraska went bankrupt, I was fortunate to have four opportunities. I picked the one in Alaska only because I have grandchildren her. The other three opportunities would have ended in ruin, as the chemical plant was shut down, the rare element mine was shut down, and the aluminum smelter staff was cut because of the downturn in commodity prices. Dumb luck and desire to be with family is all it was.

I guess the trick is being compartmentalizing. Not a problem for me.

My username "Prospero" was picked because he was an exile, and I've always considered myself an internal exile. Perhaps we're all internal exiles.

I was never at high school any longer than it took me to drop off my girlfriend, hook up with a buddy, and head for the foothills to get loaded.

I'm betting there are more like us. I know there are a lot in Alaska.

My wife stays at home quilting, taking care of us, and dealing with two German shepherds. She put me through school and kept working after that. She's earned the extra freedom outside the 8-5 schedule she followed for so many years.

It's good to be here. Getting better the more I read. It's taking some adjusting.

And you are acting in good faith here and are sincere. Yes?

So what say you now to your participation in a malicious and slanderous thread that suggested we are promoting re-education camps and other communist horrors, and various other hostile and vicious charges against everyone here?

Change your mind on that stuff? Or playing both sides? Or is the burden somehow on us?

the other thread was not necessarily adversarial. If it caused Pros to go through some introspection, thats awesome. But that wasn't a goal of mine any more than my goal was just to be nasty for the sake of nastiness.

Basically we gotta talk about the stuff that Pros brought up over and over (human nature, small propeiter capitalism, "mixed" systems, what socialism used to/does/might/will look like etc) because well, those are the things that a ton of people gravitate towards.

Baby steps for everyone man..

I mean, these people shouldn't expect things for free. Plus, we need to raise revenue.

(unfrigginbelievable)

I feel you on this..shit sucks out there

The things people are saying to our face, and what they are saying behind our back are completely different.

Fucking liars and hypocrites and cowards.

If Prospero is sincere, the burden is on him to demonstrate that as far as I am concerned. No matter what his opinions, there is no excuse for people to join the pile-on in that mob action of malicious smears and character assassination.

Zalinda, balantz, cornermouse, saracat - all people I have defended for years when they were under attack, have talked with privately many, many times, and have never mistreated in any way. And they join in on that witch hunt?

I do not trust this "I am just here trying to learn about Socialism and trying to fit in" babe in the woods innocence. If you know enough to know that insinuations about us promoting re-education camps is a way to smear us, then you are no babe in the woods.

I have an inbox full of invective, smears, and malicious attacks from our recent visitors who lied and lied and lied their asses off to us in public. There is post after post after post over at OET with vile and false smears and accusations from people who smiled to our faces and stabbed us all in the back the first chance they got.

There has to be a special place in Hell for a person like PH, coming here with his mea culpas and oh so reasonable "open-mindedness" and apologies and revelations, and then turning around and savaging us with the worst sort of lies and insinuations.

It is worse than anything that ever went on at DU. WTF next? Usrename as an admin there? WTF? Unfuckingbelievable.

It is is extremely rare for me, but I am extremely angry tonight.

No one can explain the neolib mindset as well as you. The passive aggressiveness, the response to authoritarianism, the fear of loss of identification with the ruling class, etc ad nauseousness.

Yet...yet, you're always surprised when they act as they do.

Oh yea of too much faith?

:hug:

(LOL, PH didn't come here for mea culpas. PH came here because he/she/it has untreated narcissistic personality disorder. FFS, we're not shrinks! Although I bet I could turn a tidy profit selling replacement "I" keys to a few people on the interwebs.)

choices. The people that your country is oppressing and exploiting have no options, have no choices. It doesn't matter how heart sick you are or how conflicted you are. People all over the world are being killed and enslaved by your country while you are anguishing over what your choices should be.

Look at the world - the real world, the one you had no hand in creating. Then think about what you think about that. If you come down on the side of the people being exploited and oppressed, then start reading and start thinking for yourself. No one gets a pass because they feel guilty for their status - fuck that. Read some Engels...now THAT'S status...

(by me). Freddy Engels was a rich son of capitalists...so don't think any of us are going to be judgmental on 'incomes" - it is about "who's side are you on". It isn't a trick question and it does mean something...

you could give me some feel good advice for my feel bad mood? I have a mood ring a hippie gave me and it is really dark. Any advice? TIA! (Now watch Truth come on the thread and start cussing in caps about he had nothing to do with all this and besides Kennedy was already dead!)

... is that you?

http://poplicks.com/images/dick-armey.jpg

I'm not playing both sides as much as I'm figuring out whether I can keep up with PI. Nothing more profound than that. Nothing more devious than that.

You guys all do realize how intense you are, don't you? That's a good thing--the nation lacks intensity--but it takes getting used to.

You won't find anything condemning or derogatory, only questioning, posted in that thread by me. At least nothing intentional.

I have two good friends over at OET. Both ASJRocky and laughing liberal helped me deal with my son's deployment.

I'm not up to speed on the drama that got you banned over there. I never saw you do anything except challenge arguments. It was nogod that I had problems with, but I still engaged in the argument and never considered the thought that he/she should be banned. The general idea of banning bothers me.

just keep remembering the two sides, workers/rulers, and whether what you say supports the side you espouse or the side you might not be on. Keep on keepin' on. Solidarity.

stay outta there, if you can, not worth your energy. Sorry tho' :(

I'm not transitioning to anything.

How ya' been?

I hear this all the time, "I'm in transition", from people who are mealy-mouthed about actually standing for something. Usually they "transition" right back to where they always were, in the safe house with master.

As for sides, it's the PI/OET boundary I'm struggling with. My PMs with several OET members tell me that at least a couple aren't that far from PI views.

I posted in a thread where a lot of other posted very negative and personal attacks against PI members. My own post was related to the difference in energy between the two sites, and about a troubling reference to re-education camps (Which I've since been unable to find, which makes me think I misread.)

I'm not concerned about passing a purity test, but I can see why what I posted could be viewed as negative, given the animosity between the sites.

Solidarity is easy. Communication--a little more complex.

Thanks

The process of change and adaptation when moving from Point A to Point B, possibly including an ongoing evaluation of whether the move is prudent.

Don't know how else to explain it. My views are what they have been for many years. How I should act on those views is in flux.

I'm still trying to figure out if boards actually serve any purpose at all besides providing a place to vent. Venting can be counterproductive if you want to see the pressure cooker blow instead of simmer. I believe very bad times are coming, and I'm looking for pathways to make those bad times count for something and lead to something better.

I'm still figuring PI out. I like the anger here. The emotion is good if used effectively. I'm just trying to understand the cultural and intellectual components. I haven't been involved in any of the DU or OET purges, so my nerves are not as raw as those who have.

I'm pretty satisfied that my efforts in life reflect my views within the limits of having to function in a system I don't believe in. If PI proves to be another way to pursue my beliefs, fine. I'm not working to pass a purity test.

In spite of all the anger and hyperbole, I haven't read anything to make me think I'm any less a closet commie than anyone else on PI.

You're talking and talking but you're not saying anything.

You want to understand the "cultural and intellectual components" of....what?


[div class="excerpt"]I'm pretty satisfied that my efforts in life reflect my views within the limits of having to function in a system I don't believe in.[/quote]

Jesus Jumping Christ on a pogo stick, wtf does that even mean?!

Sorry, but PI won't be "another way to pursue my beliefs" for you.

This isn't a church.

given what's happened the past few weeks. It will die down but I doubt you'll convince many here that the OET liberals are just misunderstood no matter what they've told you in PMs. The claim usually goes something like "don't get me wrong, I agree with Mike (chlamor, kid, etc...), BUT ..." and then there's a pack of excuses about how they are nasty brutes without table manners. The communication on this really isn't that complicated. Simply answer the question: Which side are you on?

We are always joking around. You want to see intensity look at some of the people attacking us elsewhere. I think it is the things that people here say that is the problem, not the way they say it.

It's simple if it's that simple. There's a world peasant class and most of the world's population is in it.

You'll get no argument from me that OET is mostly Liberals, or that DU is composed of Neocons.

I've been traveling in little airplanes all over Southcentral, Southoutheast and Interior Alaska for the last three weeks, catching an Internet connection when I can, so I'm not well versed in all of what's happened over the last few weeks.

As far as the Battle of the Boards, I didn't even know PI existed until I got a PM at OET suggesting the site. My entire board history goes back only about six months, mostly on DU, more recently on OET, and only on PI for the last week or so.

You didn't even ask what my efforts, or the results of those efforts, were.

You deny that there are intellectual and cultural components to PI, or you dismiss them, I can't tell because you didn't say.

I make my living solving problems others haven't been able to solve. Every once in a while I come across a no-win situation. This seems to be one.

Good luck with the revolution.

:shrug:

I'm not talking about the neolib mindset, I am talking about some people doing some very despicable and dishonorable things to promote the neolib mindset. That is wrong, no matter the cause or situation.

I am not sure how that could be - that people "aren't that far from PI views." Which views? The views of which one of us?

We here - along with the majority of the people in the general population - see politics as the ongoing battle between the haves and the have nots. People either do or they don't see things that way. Most do see things that way, but those who wish to side with the haves want to disguise that and confuse people. But they are taking an unambiguous and rigid stand every bit as much as we are.

"I am close to your views, BUT..." is an obfuscation and a deception.

There is no such thing as "our views" to be close to or far from in any case. There is a bunch of junk that people make up, about "them" and "their views" in order to shut down discussion and shut people up. In their world, there are hundreds of issues to have views on and they flock together with those who echo and reinforce their "views" - which are really just personal feelings and a form of self-expression. They are projecting the way they approach politics onto everyone else.

But there is nothing that could be called "our views" - some sort of rigid agreed upon dogma that all must adhere to here. We argue all of the time here and disagree about all sorts of things.

There is one and only one point of view, a very rigid and narrow and dogmatic point of view that is being ruthlessly enforced right now at OET, that meets with resistance here, and even then if people argued it honestly it would not be a problem. Of course it cannot be successfully argued openly and honestly. All who tried, myself included, are now one of "us" and that is the only thing we share here. We have rejected the convoluted and illogical thinking of liberalism that tries to simultaneously appear to support the working class, while actually shilling for the owners, bosses, managers, investors, and therefore for the rulers.

That is so simple and clear. Why is there so much confusion? Because people are intentionally introducing confusion, and others are too afraid to challenge them or because they hope to gain advantage, acceptance, and/or approval by kissing up to them.

I'm actually Dr Nice Guy

There are sites where they spend a lot of time getting just the right labels on everyone, and then correctly defining each label and associating that with the proper doctrine.

[div class="excerpt"]I love labels. When I was younger, I constantly changed my political views. Hell, I still change my views. However, I often found myself adopting "sets of values" because if I didn't agree with "all Marxist views," I couldn't be a Marxist. Finding yourself with no political identity is a troubling situation. I understand why you want to know "if you're a socialist." Technically, your views best fit under the category of social democracy.

However, I would advocate this. Whatever your political views are, label yourself the philosophy that makes sense to you. If none of them do, define yourself. Sometimes, people will argue with you. You're views suite social democracy, and you're wrong to call yourself a socialist. If you disagree, call yourself a socialist. Just be prepared to defend your label.

I might be closer to collectivist anarchism than anarcho-communism, technically, but I feel the latter definition better represents my ideals. I consider myself a communist, and I consider myself an anarchist. The latter entails the former, but I don't consider this necessarily true. According to Wikipedia, anarchism entails views outside communist philosophy. We claim "anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction," but we don't decide what names people call themselves. The ideas anarcho-capitalism entails my very well be contradictory, but it made sense to the anarcho-capitalists to call themselves by such a definition. If we convince people it's contradictory, later, we might convince them the definition is faulty.

Why do I call myself an anarcho-communist? According to Wikipedia, which I love, anarcho-communism entails:

Abolition of the state, private property, and capitalism.
Direct Democracy
Voluntary Associations, Worker's Councils, and/or a gift economy.

Abolition of private property, capitalism, advocating direct democracy. Anyone evaluating my views would see those as consistent positions i hold.

I get in trouble with anarchists when I discuss the state, voluntary associations, and other issues. I consider conflicts between mutual interest best resolvable through elections and collectively enforceable. Decentralized agreement constitutes a state, according to some. How they resolve conflicts is beyond me. I've also suggest individuals can actively limit the freedom of others if it's necessary to maximizing the good of society and supported by the majority of people.

I advocate decentralized or collective authority used to resolves issues of conflicting interest (necessary) and positive liberty maximization (unnecessary but beneficial). I think the former case will have anarchists reluctantly concede that I "can legitimately call myself an anarchist." The latter case will have people throwing me in with totalitarianism, 1984 references, and all other degrees of demagogy. Essentially, it means that if the majority of people, in a social system, agree to taxation through a purely democratic process, that process is legitimate. This is based on a view of human nature. Had that person been outside society, they would get no moral consideration at all. We would simply steal their money for self-interest. Since they are in society, we grant them the benefits of society. They have free expression, politically and socially, to compel us to action.

Of course, I'm not convinced taxation is entirely necessary in an ideal society, perhaps as an anarcho-transitional phase. Again, I don't get all my crayons from one box. I don't agree with state socialism, but Marx was onto something about gradual change. Sometimes gradual change leads to monumental change, such as revolution. However, a revolution that leads to a completely communist society, I think, isn't necessarily the case. If I want to turn my house into a castle, I could do it overnight, but what constitutes a "transitional phase" is only a view about time. I don't after a revolution, there would still be a period of turmoil where individuals. I'm actually trying to conceptualize my views into some sort of new-school revolutionary thought. Revolutionary theory emerged from a time period of specific views. We know things we didn't then, and the theories have barely changed at all. I think they need to undergo some changes. Or at least evaluate them and reestablish why they "work" in the first place.

To conclude, I am a communist. I am an anarcho-communist. Opponents could claim I'm a minarcho-socialist, but I disagree. I think my view is consistent with the fundamental ideas of communism and anarchism. Communism is fundamentally a belief in equality, as I see it. Anarchism is fundamentally a belief in skepticism of power, as I see it. Anarchism entails "anti-power, anti-statism" because there is reason to be skeptical of their usefulness. I'm not sure it entails a complete lack of authority.[/quote]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/always-thought-myself-t107292/index.html

what a wanker.

thanks for asking! Feel like Alice running with the Queen of Hearts to stay in place...but I know as of this week, I've still got a job next year.

You don't need to transition!! Except maybe a user name once in a while! :)