Looks like an interesting group here so I thought I'd register and maybe post sometimes. Not much to contribute since I'm just a truck driver and I don't spend a whole lot of time reading.

My main reason for joining is the discussions I've read about alternatives to Capitalism and gaining more rights for workers. I like the sound of that so don't mind me. I'll be over in the corner listening, for the most part.

Thanks for letting me join. :hello:

Welcome from another non-scholar. Lotta truck drivers where I grew up in central Wisconsin. Also many union workers, though that may not be the case anymore. Glad to have you with us.

Welcome. Those are as good reasons as it gets. Your reasons are the base of what it's all about and your observations will just help build the case we are making. Comment where you like and don't be shy.

Welcome aboard! There ain't nothing "just" about being working class, brother. I am proud of it. Come on in and don't worry about anyone telling you that you are wrong about something; hell, we all have been wrong more than not...

Don't say "just a truck driver" or I will upchuck all over you.

:smile:

Welcome!

No need to sit in the corner either. Since you don't read much there's a chance you still have some measurable brainwave activity. Contribute!

Since you don't read much there's a chance you still have some measurable brainwave activity. Contribute!

That's why it took me so long to get to this point. I just never paid any attention to anything outside Dem/Repub until this system started to have a negative effect on my life.:dunce:

I was unaware of so much that I had to live through a lot of tough times while supporting this system that has kept wages stagnant or shrinking for decades.

I'm just tired of it. I don't really care about becoming a Communist or a Socialist or a Revolutionary and sure as hell not a Capitalist. I just want people to be able to live without so much struggle. At the very minimum, Fair Pay for an honest effort is what I want for everybody. We're not anywhere close to that now.

I'm tired of all these wars, too.

Thanks for the warm welcome. I expect to learn a lot and will try to contribute where I can.

Fair Pay for an honest effort
Ah, there is the problem. What is "fair"? If any profit is extracted from your labor then it is not "fair" by my lights.

Back in the teens, twenties and thirties workers were literally shot down for striking for a living wage and for working conditions that did not result in (again, literally) an average of one work related death a day - a day. Cops, the US Army and other paid goons would come in a kill workers who just wanted decent treatment and a "fair wage". Killed them and then put the ones not murdered on trial for treason. A government commission (I will find the citation) announced something along the order that "anyone trying to disrupt corporate or business interests were enemies of the US". Traitors for wanting workplace safety and a living wage. That is why no one today remembers the history of labor in this country, if you did you could not possibly call yourself a "citizen". And you can't betray a country you aren't a citizen of...

Sorry, forgot which forum we're in. I get a little "up tempo" sometimes... :)

Ah, there is the problem. What is "fair"? If any profit is extracted from your labor then it is not "fair" by my lights.

Back in the teens, twenties and thirties workers were literally shot down for striking for a living wage and for working conditions that did not result in (again, literally) an average of one work related death a day - a day. Cops, the US Army and other paid goons would come in a kill workers who just wanted decent treatment and a "fair wage". Killed them and then put the ones not murdered on trial for treason. A government commission (I will find the citation) announced something along the order that "anyone trying to disrupt corporate or business interests were enemies of the US". Traitors for wanting workplace safety and a living wage. That is why no one today remembers the history of labor in this country, if you did you could not possibly call yourself a "citizen". And you can't betray a country you aren't a citizen of...

Sorry, forgot which forum we're in. I get a little "up tempo" sometimes... :)

Hey Dhal, I agree with you but I think if you read Marx's Critique of the Gotha Program (which was Marx's rather harsh analysis of the principles declared by the SPD) it will sharpen our analysis even more. Yes it is "your" labor..but its a tricky question. Marx scoffs at anyone directly receiving back the full proceeds/fruit of their labor because there are tons of deductions that are societally necessary just to maintain any given laborer and also to maintain the great mass of laborers in general. The social component basically.

Now you could call that semantics since you could just as easily define "full proceeds" to be after those exemptions are taken out, but Marx felt it needed to be cleared up and brought to light as an issue (in fact, he says it is an issue of the past and that the SPD are moving backwards by invoking that kind of rhetoric).

Anyway, I know you didn't exactly make the same argument, but the idea of "your" labor, "my labor", "his labor" and so on doesn't quite square with from each/to each.


Its also interesting to note that Marx and the IWMA called each "citizen" rather than 'comrade'. Citizenship was (and still is when you consider immigration) a BIG deal.

But like I said, I'm not posting to gainsay what you wrote because I agree with it. So, I guess mostly I am adding a touch of "perspective".

Ah, there is the problem. What is "fair"? If any profit is extracted from your labor then it is not "fair" by my lights.



Yeah, I figured "fair" was probably too vague. I really can't give you an accurate answer. Maybe just so people don't have to work more than one job to make ends meet would be a good start. Workers are so far behind, it would take a pretty big increase to catch up with the way cost of living has risen. Workers should be able to take vacations and retire with dignity when they are ready. They shouldn't have to choose between going to the doctor or paying rent.

I don't know if any profit is unfair or not. I've never started a business so it would be hard for me to say since I don't know how to do it.

But like I said, I'm not posting to gainsay what you wrote because I agree with it. So, I guess mostly I am adding a touch of "perspective".

And worthy perspective it is. Here is yet a bit more, though far less eloquent.

One would do well to recall not solely what you are saying but also to note that the labor time a worker can expect to give over to societal and self maintenance is very likely to be considerably less than that required under capitalism given that the hungry beast that chews profit from our asses will be slain.

I don't know if any profit is unfair or not.

You needn't trouble yourself with such considerations before you have first satisfied yourself that you know beyond the shadow of doubt what exactly profit is.

And before that can come clear, there is...

Value (http://www.thebellforum.com/showthread.php?t=52841).

Give the link a good hard look when you have time and then ask some questions. You'll surely have some.

The first one I'll offer:

Why is it in our society that no one ever teaches us what Value is? Where it comes from?

You needn't trouble yourself with such considerations before you have first satisfied yourself that you know beyond the shadow of doubt what exactly profit is.

And before that can come clear, there is...

Value (http://www.thebellforum.com/showthread.php?t=52841).

Give the link a good hard look when you have time and then ask some questions. You'll surely have some.

The first one I'll offer:

Why is it in our society that no one ever teaches us what Value is? Where it comes from?

I'm not going to lie... that was a bit confusing at first glance.

I'll look it over again tomorrow after work.

Thanks for the info.

Welcome from another non-scholar. Lotta truck drivers where I grew up in central Wisconsin. Also many union workers, though that may not be the case anymore. Glad to have you with us.

"Truck Driver" - Magic words...

Long-haul or local?

Teamster?

Gypsy?

My Dad drove truck, owned his own rig for a while. He blames me for ending his driving career sicne my Mom made him settle down when I was born, ha.

I don't think he ever made any money at it after you subtracted truck repairs. He went for retraining and got his CDL again in the 90s and bounced around with a few different companies but they all wanted him to unload the trailer himself or hire someone at the dock. He was in his 50s and has muscular dystrophy so he wasn't up for that.

He also tried team driving to the West Coast and back but he never found another driver that he meshed with. My Mom says things were more lax in the 70s so my Dad kept getting into trouble when he'd blow off writing his log or things like that.

Eventually, he drove 24 sraight hours from Minnesota to Florida (no, I don't know why..just to prove he could I guess). He crawled into the sleep and got so ill they had to have medics remove him. Needless to say, that was the end of his 90s comeback since the company was irate and so was my Mom.

My Dad drove truck, owned his own rig for a while. He blames me for ending his driving career sicne my Mom made him settle down when I was born, ha.

I don't think he ever made any money at it after you subtracted truck repairs. He went for retraining and got his CDL again in the 90s and bounced around with a few different companies but they all wanted him to unload the trailer himself or hire someone at the dock. He was in his 50s and has muscular dystrophy so he wasn't up for that.

He also tried team driving to the West Coast and back but he never found another driver that he meshed with. My Mom says things were more lax in the 70s so my Dad kept getting into trouble when he'd blow off writing his log or things like that.

Eventually, he drove 24 sraight hours from Minnesota to Florida (no, I don't know why..just to prove he could I guess). He crawled into the sleep and got so ill they had to have medics remove him. Needless to say, that was the end of his 90s comeback since the company was irate and so was my Mom.

Gypsy = "Owner-Operator"

Your Dad was a gypsy. There was a time when it was a direct path to the middle-class. You were a gear head or military to begin with, you went to school or picked up a job in the industry. You put away a few bucks (not so few really). You signed your life away to the bank, and you had a rig. Now you worked your ass off to pay for it and, depending on what sector you worked in... you had a chance for a good life.

Your fortunes really depended on interest rates and long-haul rates but it appeared to rest on how hard you could work. In any case, in the old days you instantly began to mutate - giant arms, tiny legs, and truckers' torso. You also were mostly absent from your good life.

The Teamsters organized a goodly number of gypsies and they were good union types despite the contradictions in their situation. Still, the heart of the union was the master freight agreement which was salaried drivers and the delivery services, starting with UPS. The three groups rarely had much to do with each other although the last two tended to be organized in the same Locals.

The last point was where the "Unity" reform movement began in the Teamsters - by combining long-haul, short-haul and delivery into "Unity Slates". It was obvious but it was also quite an innovation for its time. Of course, it also put the Slates directly into a collision course with not just the employers and the old reactionary leadership but also with the Mafia. That was the real struggle within the Teamsters before the Justice Department stepped in.

Of course, the last changed everything. In the end, Hoffa was elected on a "Unity Slate", but by then it wasn't clear what that meant.

"Truck Driver" - Magic words...

Long-haul or local?

At the bottom of the seniority list, I do different stuff every week. I don't have a scheduled bid start time. Did a lot of local P&D this summer. Extra board OTR runs when they will let me - that's where the really good money is. This week, I'm just switching trailers in the yard. Things are really slow right now.


Teamster?

yep


Gypsy?

I used to be, sort of. Did several years of truckload for bottom feeder carriers. I think "vagrant" is the more appropriate term for the predicament I was in. That's how your life is, going down the road in a rolling jail cell. Seriously, some of the worst years of my life, working twice as hard for less than half the money.

Gotta get ready to go move some trailers but I'm going to send you a PM when I get in tomorrow.

This is progress...

I agree, D.

On the trucking, a lot of guys did it where I grew up. In high school I babysat for my aunt's young boys so she could do some of the long hauls with her husband (in the summer). I was in a rural area where some folks farmed, some worked in factories, and some drove trucks (this was the 70s-80s). Kids coming out of high school often saw it as a pretty good job, as opposed to others out there. But certainly not easy work ...

Sorry I've been out of touch. I've kept you guys in mind the whole time but I've been so busy it's been hard to find time to read the info that was linked to earlier. Haven't really had time to stop in at all.

The "Occupy" protests give me a little bit of hope but when I read commentary on it... it's pretty demoralizing. Just the general attitude of people I work with is demoralizing. I don't think anyone there gives a second thought about the working class or anyone else that is struggling.

I'm probably running extra board in the morning so I better get to bed. Gotta make more money so I can afford to go to work so I can make more money....:driver:

Stay safe brother, and check in whenever you can - the porch light is always on...