I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://populistindependent.org/

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

It's been my experience that if one follows links from an Iluminatti/Masonic conspiracy posts one will find the Protocols. That this crap is associated with the "left" is embarassing and counterproductive. Anyone who mouths that nonsense has zero credibility.

To Leonard Zeskind, all conspiracy theories "are essentially theologically constructed views of events. Conspiracy theories are renderings of a metaphysical devil which is trans-historical, omnipotent, and destructive of God's will on earth. This is true even for conspiracy theories in which there is not an explicit religious target."

http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/protocol.html

An interesting history of the Protocols here, included for it's tracing of the antisemitism of fundamentalist Islamist back to Europe.

http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/protocols.txt

One can oppose Zionism/imperialism and not fall for the crap of antisemitism. Otherwise we get this sort of poisonous bile:

http://www.independent.org/publications ... asp?id=359 (http://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=359)

It's been my experience that if one follows links from an Iluminatti/Masonic conspiracy posts one will find the Protocols.

On the Protocols, I read an interesting book a couple of years ago about them that made a convincing case that what they actually were was a blueprint for what the Nazis were planning to do. That got me to thinking about that same phenomenon here, and your post reminded me of that. If you take the Protocols and change the title to "The Protocols of the Nazis of Germany" and then replace "Nazi" for "Jew" in all of passages about the supposed evil tendencies and secret conspiring for world domination, the damned thing reads like a blueprint for exactly what the Nazis did - like a script they knew very well and were closely adhering to.

We see the same sort of reverse role confusion with the right wingers here today. Then I came across this post at another board, and instantly saw the same pattern. I haven't worked out any thing mich to say about this yet, but wanted to post it before I lost the thread.


Why Republicans who preach morality and abstinence are the most kinky

In light of the latest sex scandal, it's clear to me that people want and are turned on most by what they think is bad!!! Just like telling a child something is bad will only make the child want to try it more. If you really want to screw up someones mind, tell them every thing they really might enjoy is evil and bad! The more they are not supposed to do something the more they will be enticed by it and be compelled to try it and the more it will turn them on! Being BAD is the BIGGEST turn on for many people. I don't think you see as many Democrats caught up in kinky sex scandals because we don't have guilt about being kinky and so I actually don't think we feel as much of a need to be kinky and screw around with prostitutes. Sure Clinton broke the rules so Democrats screw around too, but I don't think as much as the holy rollers and our scandals are usually less interesting. It's like the kid who's parents let them do everything! There was no risk and enjoyment in doing things because there were no rules to break. Being bad is a HUGE turn on for people! Many people only get turned on when cheating or doing something they think is sinful.

This reminds me of a cartoon I once saw where a guy working the the Kerry campaign is at the door of this guy dressed in high heals, womens underwear, holding a whip and he has a cat shoved up his butt. The kinky guy is saying "No thank you I am a registered Republican."

There is so much truth to that cartoon. The more they talk about morals and abstinence, they more they can't resist being BAD!

The Nazis did everything to Germany that they said the Jews were planning to do, and they got into power by convincing people of the threat. The threat was real. But it was all in the imagination of the Nazis. They look out at this other imaginary group and see themselves without realizing that is what they are seeing. There is some sort of power in this sort of lie - because they are true in a way. We really do need to worry about this threat to America, and it is exactly the way the right wingers are describing it. There is only one small lie, and the right wingers don't know they are lying - that threat exists in the minds of the right wingers, and it is the right wingers, not "Islamo-fascists" who are the threat.

Where did all of that illogical and highly improbable stuff about Jews come from? Certainly not from evidence or observation. Yet is poured out from the Nazi "thinkers" in great detail. They were talking about themselves, and just substituting a handy stand in - a group to play the role for them.

There is some sort of way that the Nazis, and the right wingers here, are trapped in their own nightmare and they are just dragging us all into it. The ruling class is likely to see advantages in this, just as the German industrialists did, but the phenomenon itself has a life of its own.

I see your point Mike but that post (from DU I guess?) is idiotic. First off it gives prudishness way too much credit but more importantly, he (and most of the Left can be thrown in for good measure) seem to have a certain fascination with hearing about this "scandalous" stuff themselves.

These dumbshits actually think they're "normal". Too bad the people who dictate to them what *normalcy* have no intention of conforming to any such standards.

For instance, there's the implicit prostitution = bad thing going on here:


so I actually don't think we feel as much of a need to be kinky and screw around with prostitutes.

Its like Artie Lang says: "you give her 20 bucks, she blows you. What's the problem?"

Deep down I'm pretty the real story is the ones riding the high horse about "gay rights, minority rights, women's lib, etc" are the ones who secretly believe gays, women and minorities are inferior and thus they try to atone for those dirty thoughts and/or try to level the playing field in the most asinine of ways.

It's stunningly bizarre to listent to these RWers talk though. Its all personal responsibility and individual freedom. Until the subject becomes how chickenshit we should all be about the next Islamic attack, or how we have SOOOOOO many enemies hell-bent on killing us and we've *got* to do what it takes to secure our nation (and it's borders - thats a strong theme). And people have DIED to give us these freedoms yadda yadda..

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://populistindependent.org/

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

I'm not sure where you guys went or what kinda smoke you bought when you got there, but the responses to this OP are, uh, inscrutable.

I'd like to again throw this OP out there for responses though.

To what ends, this main page?

(I know, I know, and I really will get around to doing more there myself. It's just been such a lonely deal and so many other things to do and read, etc...)

Can we offer blogs?

Can we offer blogs?

Most Certainly!

Besides the "living docs" thing I have harped on about, I have hoped very much to see users create their own blogs that project their own individual takes. But I am thinking yours will hafta be titled the "No theory" blog and mine the "Just Sayin'" blog and Wolf's the "Fire & Brimstone" blog ;)

http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/blog

It's there for the using. We just ain't using it!

If you make yourself a username on the main page, you can then create a blog. It has a WYSIWYG editor so users who can compose a document in MS Word, even a fancy one, can do the same thing using this tool either to create the content or accept a paste from your favorite word processor. Here is a screenshot:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c297/rustyfeasel/DrupalPostBlogScreenshot.jpg

Content Types
Page

Drupal says, "If you want to add a static page, like a contact page or an about page, use a page." If you're used to building web sites with HTML, this is what you've done in the past. In general a "page" is going to stand on its own and will probably have a menu entry. You may also later add it into a book. When I created my first two sites (based on former static HTML sites, I made the front page a "page;" I have since changed to a "story."

Story

Drupal says, "Stories are articles in their simplest form: they have a title, a teaser and a body, but can be extended by other modules. The teaser is part of the body too. Stories may be used as a personal blog or for news articles." Why they say to use it for a blog, I have no idea; they supply a blogging module as part of the core support.

Okay, you've seen the Drupal site and noticed that there are "pieces" all over the place. Look at the front page; you'll see several announcements with space between them - those are "stories."

I have now switched my sites to use stories on the front page. The "welcome" message is one story. I have an announcement story node that any of my admins can edit. If you want to have weather or cartoons, a story is a good idea. Another use is if you are on a net ring - put the ring links into a story.

Book Page

Drupal says, "A book is a collaborative writing effort: users can collaborate writing the pages of the book, positioning the pages in the right order, and reviewing or modifying pages previously written. So when you have some information to share or when you read a page of the book and you didn't like it, or if you think a certain page could have been written better, you can do something about it."

Another way to use a book is to collect related information together. A book has its own navigation, so it can also be used to de-clutter your menu.

Blog Entry

You probably already know what a blog is, but just in case: A blog is a diary, collection of thoughts, or other time-ordered content.



So have you decided what kind of content you want? No, okay, just start with a page; it's easy. As you go create your content, be thinking about the menu as well.

* G1. Creating a Page
* G2. Creating a Story
* G3. Creating a Book Page
* G4. Creating a Blog entry

Taken from this helpful site:
http://drupal.org/node/120635

Can we criticize Drupal? :lol:

I wasn't asking how the Drupal folks would answer that question. "Blog? Why sure! You can do anything with Drupal!"

I will look at the Drupal blog function. (whine, moan, complain)

Can we criticize Drupal? :lol:

I wasn't asking how the Drupal folks would answer that question. "Blog? Why sure! You can do anything with Drupal!"

I will look at the Drupal blog function. (whine, moan, complain)

"There are a few templates included and switching between them is easy. There are more themes available and the best ones seem to be ports from other blogging systems. Drupal has the most flexibility of all the reviews as far as themes and templates as not only can you download and create new themes but also theme engines (smarty, phptempate xtemplate,..). This can make it a little confusing at first but the documentation for each theme will tell you what is required. There is even a module to allow individual users to choose blog themes." - a reviewer

What is it you want?

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Note the revisions tab...

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

http://www.fontplay.com/images/fanboy.jpg
.

What is it you want?

I will have to spend a lot of time researching this before I can answer. I thought maybe you had a pro-active positive program in mind for using this software, rather than taking a "what's wrong with it?" stance. The Kucinich campaign is using Drupal and it is the worst online disaster I have ever seen. Of course it could be incompetent admin who are doing a poor job of making the software a user-friendly tool, rather than something that the user must adapt to. But then again we have no one doing that job at all here, or even acknowledging that it is needed. Drupal has made up a bunch of meaningless terminology like "page" and "node" and an incorrect and misleading use of the word "static" and who knows what else. Learning software terms is one thing, but being required to re-learn English in order to use the software is not something I am very excited about, unless someone can explain to me what the purpose and usefulness of that is.

My one experience with Drupal involved a few weeks figuring it out and then translating to casual users how to use it. Even at that, it was still problematic using it. So if you are saying that we are free to become administrators and dig in and learn how this software works, and then transmit that to the others, then yes Drupal can do blogs and whatever else it seems. The swiss army knife multi-tasking all in one content management concept is all the rage. There is a lot to play with, and finding out what "it" can do. That makes for a better entertainment activity than a useful tool to actually get a job done, often.

Why not just use multiple instances of something like WordPress, software that is dedicated to blogging?

I haven't looked at blogging software in a couple of years, and it would take some time - who is using what, what the problems are, etc.

Any thoughts in integration with the phpbb software? Or will the two operate as though they were separate sites?

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

.

I think we should, where there is not out and out conflict, try to edit ideas and writing styles to make a coherent, shared article when we can do so. At least that is the idea vis the living document, presumably a 'book' in drupal parlance. Discussion about those controversies and edits can then happen here on an associated thread.

Blogs are where individuals can make all the screwy claims they want, accepting that there may be comments posted to the blog that controvert the screwiness.

I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages. This works, but not last night when I was too tired to give a rat's rear.

What is it you want?

I will have to spend a lot of time researching this before I can answer. I thought maybe you had a pro-active positive program in mind for using this software, rather than taking a "what's wrong with it?" stance. The Kucinich campaign is using Drupal and it is the worst online disaster I have ever seen. Of course it could be incompetent admin who are doing a poor job of making the software a user-friendly tool, rather than something that the user must adapt to. But then again we have no one doing that job at all here, or even acknowledging that it is needed. Drupal has made up a bunch of meaningless terminology like "page" and "node" and an incorrect and misleading use of the word "static" and who knows what else. Learning software terms is one thing, but being required to re-learn English in order to use the software is not something I am very excited about, unless someone can explain to me what the purpose and usefulness of that is.

My one experience with Drupal involved a few weeks figuring it out and then translating to casual users how to use it. Even at that, it was still problematic using it. So if you are saying that we are free to become administrators and dig in and learn how this software works, and then transmit that to the others, then yes Drupal can do blogs and whatever else it seems. The swiss army knife multi-tasking all in one content management concept is all the rage. There is a lot to play with, and finding out what "it" can do. That makes for a better entertainment activity than a useful tool to actually get a job done, often.

Why not just use multiple instances of something like WordPress, software that is dedicated to blogging?

I haven't looked at blogging software in a couple of years, and it would take some time - who is using what, what the problems are, etc.

Any thoughts in integration with the phpbb software? Or will the two operate as though they were separate sites?

I really had not thought about integration in any serious way.

I did not see why we could not have a line on a page that said something like "Related Discussion: http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/index.php"

Multiple instances of applications means multiple backups and other admin chores. That seems rather a lot to ask of donated server space, though if there is some big reason for considering it, I suppose we can take up that discussion.

I don't think you'll find that anyone in the business of supply the millions of blogs in this country has some gee whix market cornering feature. 12/2006: "We were so impressed with Drupal’s new theme, that we decided to port it to WordPress and let everyone here have at it. So here it is: Garland a.k.a “Themetastic” by Stefan Nagtegaal and Steven Wittens."
http://wordpress.com/blog/2006/12/12/ne ... or-picker/ (http://wordpress.com/blog/2006/12/12/new-theme-garland-and-rockin-color-picker/)
These two are most popular blog scripts.

I'll ask Gabriel about theme choices with a min of hassles for him or users to use.

I'd have to say a system of volitional, benevolent authoritarianism.

I was never a subscriber to the prevailing core belief that a majority was wiser and better equipped (one of the underpinnings for majority rule), in matters of self-governance.To the contrary, I'd trust certain members of the minority over the majority any day... to know what's in the best interest of the whole.

Since we're talking about ideals here (an attribute of ideology), my ideal scenario would be a government by an enlightened few... who are voluntarily placed in the position of authority by the majority... upon conceding that it would be in their best interest to do so.We're all entitled to our dreams.

AE
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/d ... g_id=66994 (http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=66960&mesg_id=66994)

Yep, and our nightmares too. All we need is an "enlightened few", If only we could get our accumulated "Assholes" to form a committee for public saftey.......Gawd, if this is "left"...but thanks for the heads up!

I'd have to say a system of volitional, benevolent authoritarianism.

I was never a subscriber to the prevailing core belief that a majority was wiser and better equipped (one of the underpinnings for majority rule), in matters of self-governance.To the contrary, I'd trust certain members of the minority over the majority any day... to know what's in the best interest of the whole.

Since we're talking about ideals here (an attribute of ideology), my ideal scenario would be a government by an enlightened few... who are voluntarily placed in the position of authority by the majority... upon conceding that it would be in their best interest to do so.We're all entitled to our dreams.

AE
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/d ... g_id=66994 (http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=66960&mesg_id=66994)

Yep, and our nightmares too. All we need is an "enlightened few", If only we could get our accumulated "Assholes" to form a committee for public saftey.......Gawd, if this is "left"...but thanks for the heads up!

Yup...

But, you wouldn't have been surprised if, instead of writing:

"We're all entitled to our dreams."

He had instead written:

"We're all entitled."

Simple, direct... a majority sentiment in the 'burbs.

.

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

.

I think we should, where there is not out and out conflict, try to edit ideas and writing styles to make a coherent, shared article when we can do so. At least that is the idea vis the living document, presumably a 'book' in drupal parlance. Discussion about those controversies and edits can then happen here on an associated thread.

Blogs are where individuals can make all the screwy claims they want, accepting that there may be comments posted to the blog that controvert the screwiness.

I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages. This works, but not last night when I was too tired to give a rat's rear.

We ain't "close enough" to each other, yet, to make that work. Our writing is inherently contradictory. You can stand the idea on it's head and try it that way: i.e. pick a subject and allow mutual editing to create a common article... much like a wiki. The thing is composed from common themes...

.

I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

.

I think we should, where there is not out and out conflict, try to edit ideas and writing styles to make a coherent, shared article when we can do so. At least that is the idea vis the living document, presumably a 'book' in drupal parlance. Discussion about those controversies and edits can then happen here on an associated thread.

Blogs are where individuals can make all the screwy claims they want, accepting that there may be comments posted to the blog that controvert the screwiness.

I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages. This works, but not last night when I was too tired to give a rat's rear.

We ain't "close enough" to each other, yet, to make that work. Our writing is inherently contradictory. You can stand the idea on it's head and try it that way: i.e. pick a subject and allow mutual editing to create a common article... much like a wiki. The thing is composed from common themes...

.

Yes, right. I was just tossing a turd in the fire.

The idea I've had is that where there are contradictions that we have two lenses on them

- 1 a forum discussion about a living document/'book'/'story'/future pamphlet (whatever, you get it) along with a method for reduction of differences and editing the document, something that later would hopefully represent a consensus position

and

-2 a blog for whichever user would want to deploy it, this being a place where individual positions can be stated and kept for prosperity. The blog could expound on the above either in support or dissent or merely in adding detail. Of course any number of other items could come up too. I think it would be great to see the special knowledge of our participants be reflected in their blogs, e.g. Mike's knowledge of agriculture and folk music, KOBH and BP's grasp of the hard sciences, etc.

Of course, there are many other possibilities. These are just the ones I have long entertained. And, concerning the tendency for arguments to erupt (whether tolerable or really unhappy ones), it seems to me that the same sort of process that would inform the item 1 above is the sort that could be used to settle disagreements in policy positions, whether those be about politics about about running this place.

I really have nothing much more specific to offer.

R

[quote="PPLE":1q67ypjn]I will, when time permits, grab content from this discussion

http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/vi ... .php?t=251 (http://populistindependent.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=251)

and make a page on the drupal site at http://www.populistindependent.org/drupal/node/25

Then, in re the 'sink to the bottom' thing, you guys can see an example of what I hope the main url site can become.

I hope Mike can generate some content that we can throw out there by way of creating some bylaws, rules, etc. I think early on there were some posts about that; we can root around in the old threads too...

OK, I have plagiarized a bunch of you guys' stuff and pasted it as a page on the main pages. Go check out the updated link above and see how odd three or four folks writing styles can be all pasted together.

Feel free to edit it and play with it.

We can discuss the edits here if you like.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

.

I think we should, where there is not out and out conflict, try to edit ideas and writing styles to make a coherent, shared article when we can do so. At least that is the idea vis the living document, presumably a 'book' in drupal parlance. Discussion about those controversies and edits can then happen here on an associated thread.

Blogs are where individuals can make all the screwy claims they want, accepting that there may be comments posted to the blog that controvert the screwiness.

I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages. This works, but not last night when I was too tired to give a rat's rear.

We ain't "close enough" to each other, yet, to make that work. Our writing is inherently contradictory. You can stand the idea on it's head and try it that way: i.e. pick a subject and allow mutual editing to create a common article... much like a wiki. The thing is composed from common themes...

.

Yes, right. I was just tossing a turd in the fire.

The idea I've had is that where there are contradictions that we have two lenses on them

- 1 a forum discussion about a living document/'book'/'story'/future pamphlet (whatever, you get it) along with a method for reduction of differences and editing the document, something that later would hopefully represent a consensus position

and

-2 a blog for whichever user would want to deploy it, this being a place where individual positions can be stated and kept for prosperity. The blog could expound on the above either in support or dissent or merely in adding detail. Of course any number of other items could come up too. I think it would be great to see the special knowledge of our participants be reflected in their blogs, e.g. Mike's knowledge of agriculture and folk music, KOBH and BP's grasp of the hard sciences, etc.

Of course, there are many other possibilities. These are just the ones I have long entertained. And, concerning the tendency for arguments to erupt (whether tolerable or really unhappy ones), it seems to me that the same sort of process that would inform the item 1 above is the sort that could be used to settle disagreements in policy positions, whether those be about politics about about running this place.

I really have nothing much more specific to offer.

R[/quote:1q67ypjn]

Well, I've considered doing some pages on hard science (especially cosmology and how it relates to both philosophy and physics) but to be honest alot of it ends up being speculative..more along the lines of figuring out the questions than even attempting to answer them. Of course, sometimes people get too wrapped up in their own ideas and get a little overzealous when trying to 'intuit' things ;) Which is just something you have to allow for IMO BUT it also allows others to come along and make all sorts of hypercritical commentary by opportunisically glomming onto those parts of the argument.

For instance, consider Peak Oil or Global Warming. Most everybody on this site is a believer in those things but if you stop to sketch out the knowns:

1. None of us have any advanced background in the hard sciences as far as I know, and particularly not in Earth Science

2. The facts come from a thousand different angles with a thousand different claims each of which can appear equally legitimate lacking any method of confirmation. (Consider Peak Oil - is oil biotic? Who knows? Does it replenish itself? Who knows? How much is out there right now? Who knows?).

3. In general, systems are not explainable with linear, black and white paradigms of the type Event-->Event B. No credible scientist claims this in the case of Global Warming for example, because there are so many uncertainties and so many unknowns.

4. It becomes a game of Who do you trust? (consensus of scientists, authorities with the "right" sound-talk, people cast as experts)

So in general, these are framed as debates but are in essence duelling position statements, neither one of which will ever prove to be on the mark. As they also somewhat ossify into articles of faith (consider Wolf's constant resort to the "Terminal Climate Change" boogeyman) it becomes less and less constructive to talk about.

Secondly, separating the wheat from the chaff requires wading through some rather dodgy New Age garbage since this stuff quickly becomes esoteric. (For instance, Special Relativity. Far more philosophical implications and question marks than anything else. But where does it jump the shark in terms of taking its adherents seriously? Alternate universes? Infinite divergent paths of probability? Slower aging process at relativisitc speeds? And lets just not bring up Quantum Mechanics - You might look up Copenhagen School as a prime example of my point regarding sketchy logic)

I've been wanting to put up a piece on a scientifically grounded interpretation of the Platonic Ideal now (only partly to piss off anax) but all of my links are absolutely over run with the typical "expand your mind" guru bullshit. In general I would just post a quick "ignore this crap" disclaimer but well..

Sorry, forgot where I'm going with this..I just intended to quickly outline why I haven't put up a journal

Well, I've considered doing some pages on hard science (especially cosmology and how it relates to both philosophy and physics) but to be honest alot of it ends up being speculative..more along the lines of figuring out the questions than even attempting to answer them. Of course, sometimes people get too wrapped up in their own ideas and get a little overzealous when trying to 'intuit' things ;) Which is just something you have to allow for IMO BUT it also allows others to come along and make all sorts of hypercritical commentary by opportunisically glomming onto those parts of the argument.

For instance, consider Peak Oil or Global Warming. Most everybody on this site is a believer in those things but if you stop to sketch out the knowns:

1. None of us have any advanced background in the hard sciences as far as I know, and particularly not in Earth Science

2. The facts come from a thousand different angles with a thousand different claims each of which can appear equally legitimate lacking any method of confirmation. (Consider Peak Oil - is oil biotic? Who knows? Does it replenish itself? Who knows? How much is out there right now? Who knows?).

3. In general, systems are not explainable with linear, black and white paradigms of the type Event-->Event B. No credible scientist claims this in the case of Global Warming for example, because there are so many uncertainties and so many unknowns.

4. It becomes a game of Who do you trust? (consensus of scientists, authorities with the "right" sound-talk, people cast as experts)

So in general, these are framed as debates but are in essence duelling position statements, neither one of which will ever prove to be on the mark. As they also somewhat ossify into articles of faith (consider Wolf's constant resort to the "Terminal Climate Change" boogeyman) it becomes less and less constructive to talk about.

Secondly, separating the wheat from the chaff requires wading through some rather dodgy New Age garbage since this stuff quickly becomes esoteric. (For instance, Special Relativity. Far more philosophical implications and question marks than anything else. But where does it jump the shark in terms of taking its adherents seriously? Alternate universes? Infinite divergent paths of probability? Slower aging process at relativisitc speeds? And lets just not bring up Quantum Mechanics - You might look up Copenhagen School as a prime example of my point regarding sketchy logic)

I've been wanting to put up a piece on a scientifically grounded interpretation of the Platonic Ideal now (only partly to piss off anax) but all of my links are absolutely over run with the typical "expand your mind" guru bullshit. In general I would just post a quick "ignore this crap" disclaimer but well..

Sorry, forgot where I'm going with this..I just intended to quickly outline why I haven't put up a journal

Present the questions... That alone has value. Part of "the job" is social criticism. Part of it is "how" it is possible, i.e. method.

An important warning, though, is that the latter carries with it an inordinate responsibilty for self discipline.

(BTW, it's easy to piss me off - just get in line.)
.

I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Won't work that way. When I managed a board it was a daily back and forth, tweaking, updating, modifying, etc. Even then it was a struggle.

I don't care to have my own pretty graphical layout, and that is a red flag - "you can make it look any way you want to and make it your very own!" This simulation of "ownership" usually means that you don't actually have a tool in your hands, you are an agent of the tool.


Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages.

Well, that is not true, since html in Drupal "pages" will call images from any server, and there is no such thing as a "Drupal server."

It all depends on if we are playing around with software, or using software as though it were a tool to actually get a job done. Since programmers are fascinated with software, they are blind to the fact that most people are not.

Hosting blogs is not a matter if merely saying go for it to people. It entails some responsibilities. The software needs to be adapted to the user's needs, not the other way around. We are responsible for their content, and for delivering it. This is all part of having a system that serves and honors the writers, not a system that demands that the writers honor and adapt to it. Software writers look at the public, at contributors, and writers as somehow fluff or peripheral to the important thing - the software. Content is something you just plug in to the beautiful "architecture" - sort of as an adornment, or as a playground or sandbox for the silly little children, generously provided for them by the adults - the f-ing software writers. Thus is parallel to the way writers are treated at the boards.

So, no, it won't work to say "OK you want to write things and like generate content and stuff for whatever reason? OK here ya go, this software will do all sorts of really kewl stuff. But of course you are probably too stupid to learn it and will have a whole bunch of silly little nit picking requests for this and that - oh, you inferior computer illiterate humans are never happy no matter what we do for you."

I think the software seriously sucks at a very fundamental level, to say the least. I have a gazillion "nit picking little requests" and will continue to generate new ones on a daily basis that need to be addressed and resolved, and I refuse to make the humans agents of the machine, and I won't adapt myself to a system that de facto makes the writers and contributors powerless and puts the burden on them - "geez, what do you want already???," nor accept limitations to what people can expect or do depending on how "computer literate" they supposedly are.

If we want contributors, we need to support and be of service to them, not cajole them to “get on the program” - a set of barriers and requirements that is being dictated by the software. Chlamor has a good handle on this – tools are not neutral. All of the software is biased – toward authoritarianism, toward devaluing content and writers, etc.

Look at the attitude over at the other place – paternalistic, condescending, and authoritarian. “OK NOW what do you guys want? We are working our fingers to the bone, and you have no idea what it takes to run this place, and people are contributing their time and money and you ingrates are whining and complaining. Here are your toys, now go outside and play and stop bothering us. And play nice, or else! Any more complaints and I will give you something to complain about. You may think you are important, but I am here to tell you that no one is indispensable and just who in Hell do you think you are anyway?”

Look how everyone rolls over for that. Authoritarianism is the default position – portrayed as neutral. It isn't neutral and it is built into everything. Can you see how we need to take an aggressive proactive stance against that?

Can you see how the members of the boards, the writers and the contributors are the working class, are Labor up against authoritarian and suppressive bosses and their handmaids – the computer geeks and software writers? “We have the bucks and the knowledge about the software and control everything – you peons need to shut up and get in line or go somewhere else. If you continue to make waves you will be terminated.”

[quote]I don't think it would be too hard to get Gabriel's attention if we present a coherent wish list nor do I think it would be a lot of trouble to get a template up so your blog has it's own page style.

Won't work that way. When I managed a board it was a daily back and forth, tweaking, updating, modifying, etc. Even then it was a struggle.

I don't care to have my own pretty graphical layout, and that is a red flag - "you can make it look any way you want to and make it your very own!" This simulation of "ownership" usually means that you don't actually have a tool in your hands, you are an agent of the tool.


Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages.

Well, that is not true, since html in Drupal "pages" will call images from any server, and there is no such thing as a "Drupal server."

It all depends on if we are playing around with software, or using software as though it were a tool to actually get a job done. Since programmers are fascinated with software, they are blind to the fact that most people are not.

Hosting blogs is not a matter if merely saying go for it to people. It entails some responsibilities. The software needs to be adapted to the user's needs, not the other way around. We are responsible for their content, and for delivering it. This is all part of having a system that serves and honors the writers, not a system that demands that the writers honor and adapt to it. Software writers look at the public, at contributors, and writers as somehow fluff or peripheral to the important thing - the software. Content is something you just plug in to the beautiful "architecture" - sort of as an adornment, or as a playground or sandbox for the silly little children, generously provided for them by the adults - the f-ing software writers. Thus is parallel to the way writers are treated at the boards.

So, no, it won't work to say "OK you want to write things and like generate content and stuff for whatever reason? OK here ya go, this software will do all sorts of really kewl stuff. But of course you are probably too stupid to learn it and will have a whole bunch of silly little nit picking requests for this and that - oh, you inferior computer illiterate humans are never happy no matter what we do for you."

I think the software seriously sucks at a very fundamental level, to say the least. I have a gazillion "nit picking little requests" and will continue to generate new ones on a daily basis that need to be addressed and resolved, and I refuse to make the humans agents of the machine, and I won't adapt myself to a system that de facto makes the writers and contributors powerless and puts the burden on them - "geez, what do you want already???," nor accept limitations to what people can expect or do depending on how "computer literate" they supposedly are.

If we want contributors, we need to support and be of service to them, not cajole them to “get on the program” - a set of barriers and requirements that is being dictated by the software. Chlamor has a good handle on this – tools are not neutral. All of the software is biased – toward authoritarianism, toward devaluing content and writers, etc.

Look at the attitude over at the other place – paternalistic, condescending, and authoritarian. “OK NOW what do you guys want? We are working our fingers to the bone, and you have no idea what it takes to run this place, and people are contributing their time and money and you ingrates are whining and complaining. Here are your toys, now go outside and play and stop bothering us. And play nice, or else! Any more complaints and I will give you something to complain about. You may think you are important, but I am here to tell you that no one is indispensable and just who in Hell do you think you are anyway?”

Look how everyone rolls over for that. Authoritarianism is the default position – portrayed as neutral. It isn't neutral and it is built into everything. Can you see how we need to take an aggressive proactive stance against that?

Can you see how the members of the boards, the writers and the contributors are the working class, are Labor up against authoritarian and suppressive bosses and their handmaids – the computer geeks and software writers? “We have the bucks and the knowledge about the software and control everything – you peons need to shut up and get in line or go somewhere else. If you continue to make waves you will be terminated.”[/quote:2k7651dm]

I'm going to take a pass on this whole class warfare analogy.

It is not lost on me that the chit chat over other boards' content and upheavals and how critical all that is comes from exactly the same person as the assured assumption that there is an adversarial context to posting on them, any of them including this one. If there is anywhere that has been demonstrated otherwise, it is here. Beyond that, I really don't care about other boards even remotely (with the exception, and that is passing, of PI). This again comes down to setting reasonable expectations for the site. A website is NOT going to bring the revolution, is NOT going to change American opinion, and is NOT in all likelihood going to springboard forth any great writer or theoretician. The whole DU, PI, PFC crowd is TINY and really not terribly meaningful at all. Let's not forget that. It is a useful context for how much criticality really needs to come to the table with the desires and suggestions users make known. There isn't a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a percent of Americans who know or give a rats ass about DU and all the little web tendrils that have come about from it. We need to get over ourselves, IMO.

That said, Wolf again made the claim the other day that Islam is a threat; it was a great post, but once again a faltering claim. Rather than induce another irrational cry-baby dust up by pointing out that that is Still utter bullshit, I decided to forgo comment. Later, when we have the infrastructure, we can take up a reasoned materialist analysis that demonstrates conclusively why that is, and always will be, destructive anti-intellectual bullshit. Folks can agree or agree to disagree, just like before except without all the unreasoned claims and fussin' because some anti-materialist commentary gets shot down in the context of a coldly *socialist* discussion.

First though we need some constructive development, or at the least, some constructive suggestions and not just from me or you, Mike. So far, No One has endeavored with any seriousness to use Drupal. I have No Doubt that Gabriel, who took it upon himself to spend quite a few hours putting it together purely for beneficent purposes, would be more than happy to help people set up their blog with a different theme or what-have-you. Of course, putting some content out there would go a long way towards inducing some help and raising some substantive objections or feature requests. Ain't no one doing that just yet...

I prefer not to commence another long, fruitlessly generalized discussion that strays from specifics about what needs done and how to do it and what tools we need to get, change, or dump in order to reach our goals. If you want something else, say so and say what and say why. I am not married to this CMS, or even to CMS in general though I do understand why there is a move towards it - openness and accessibility by non-professionals who would like to develop content. Gabriel chose it as free, broadly used, rapidly improved upon, extensible, and extremely popular for the broad purpose of putting up content developed through blogs and group efforts.

If you want this thing to be somehow different, list what changes are necessary to make it workable for you and/or the changes you think would be necessary for any and all of us. It's all open and, for the most part, all possible to discuss and change even without yet Paying for it. I think everyone should have some comment about this.

We could of course just scrap the main page and have the same old forum with its flawed structure and emphasis on argument rather than productivity. Apparently if no one really cares otherwise, I have been totally wrong and the sink to the bottom thing is not so much of a problem vis productivity as it is blessing in letting us go about burying our various past 'sins.'

Listing our goals, whatever any and each of you may have in mind, is probably the best start.

So, please oh please, why don'tcha tell us what you want out of Pop Indy? And if there is another application you think needs used, or another course of action needs pursued, what is the reason and what is your suggested answer?

But please oh please, and this is pertinent specifically to your comments above, Mike, I'll pass now just like I did before on the premise of the adversarial relationship as a premise for developing this place. It'd just as productive to go ahead and shut the thing down as to run with that idea in my opinion.

Anyone else want to weigh in here since this is really too important for just Mike and me to be discussing?

Thanks -

Pics must be uploaded to the Drupal server to be used in display on Drupal pages.

Well, that is not true, since html in Drupal "pages" will call images from any server, and there is no such thing as a "Drupal server."

I don't know if this is the actual plug-in, http://drupal.org/project/img_assist, but if not, there is indeed something similar installed with Drupal. I have not messed with it since Feb and so am not that conversant. But as I understand, one cannot 'steal bandwidth' by posting pics that are actually hosted on other sites and instead must upload them to the server hosting the drupal application. There is a module in place to accommodate this.

All of this talk about the software is beyond me. I understand how the structure will condition the content generally speaking, otherwise it's all Greek to me. If you'd asked me what a drupal was 2 months ago I'd have guessed some Australian marsupial or this week's new subatomic particle. I'm still not quite sure. If it comes to the point where I must learn a bunch of computer stuff I shall, with a whimper, but lordy, haven't you seen enough of my cyber-idiocy?

As far as what I want out of popindy, I wrote this two weeks ago:


#1 My expectation was that populist independent would be a place where theory and procedures for the adoption of an egalitarian society and the ending of capitalism might be discussed and disseminated, with absolute attention to practicality.

Which is not to say that we couldn't pursue the goals that you have in mind either. It is possible that one project might inform the other.

I'm going to take a pass on this whole class warfare analogy.

Why? If class warfare doesn't apply to life, where does it apply?


A website is NOT going to bring the revolution, is NOT going to change American opinion, and is NOT in all likelihood going to springboard forth any great writer or theoretician.

Of course it is. Why bother to otherwise?


The whole DU, PI, PFC crowd is TINY and really not terribly meaningful at all. Let's not forget that.

Why? Why must we not forget that? Politics is always driven by a very small handful of people. They don't represent the millions that they claim to, true. But they influence millions.

I don't agree with the "we don't matter" mantra. I don't agree with this idea that we can't have an impact.


We need to get over ourselves, IMO.

Bullshit. What we need tio get over ois the influenece of the finger-wagging scolding nannies diminishing and demeaning us and putting us in our place, and then when they don't like someone's strongly expressed opinion responding by playing amateur psychiatrist and analyzing what the person's "problem" might be.

I don't want to participate in any more orderly happy little kindergarten groups out on a field trip. "Now get along children, and get back in line. I want to see appropriate behavior."


That said, Wolf again made the claim the other day that Islam is a threat; it was a great post, but once again a faltering claim. Rather than induce another irrational cry-baby dust up by pointing out that that is Still utter bullshit, I decided to forgo comment. Later, when we have the infrastructure, we can take up a reasoned materialist analysis that demonstrates conclusively why that is, and always will be, destructive anti-intellectual bullshit. Folks can agree or agree to disagree, just like before except without all the unreasoned claims and fussin' because some anti-materialist commentary gets shot down in the context of a coldly *socialist* discussion.

Again, bullshit. It isn't free and open discussion wehen you descriobe the gaol as being proving someone else to be wrong, and then dismissing the dynamic that happened around that subject as though it were little children misbehaving. That may be your take on the situation, and your opinion, but you are trying to make it the default position and get everyone to comply with that. If you are going to insistson that, be honest and say "I am the boss and here is how it is going to be." Then we know where we are and can make intelligent decisions about our particiaption here.


So far, No One has endeavored with any seriousness to use Drupal.

Nor should they, not should the membership be blamed for things that stem from bad management.


If you want something else, say so and say what and say why. I am not married to this CMS, or even to CMS in general though I do understand why there is a move towards it - openness and accessibility by non-professionals who would like to develop content. Gabriel chose it as free, broadly used, rapidly improved upon, extensible, and extremely popular for the broad purpose of putting up content developed through blogs and group efforts.

You don't know what you are talking about here. This sounds like some software sales pitch.

"Who would like to develop content" WTF? "Non professionals?" WTF? A "move toward it?"

You have an end product in mind. You have a purpose for this project in mind. You need to persuade us and gain our cooperation on that. You need to spell it out and take responsibility for it, or stop hammering on us to get us to divine what it is you want, and "voluntarily" help your efforts - all the while pretending that you aren't the boss and that we have some kind of democracy. You solicit suggestions, then when I offer them tell me what is wrong with them and why they cannot be considered. You ask me for more specifics, but you are not knowledgeable enough to understand the specifics, and think that you don't need to be. That makes it impossible to discuss.

"Owner" means someone to have an intelligent discussion with about what is needed at the server. If mugga wants to be absent, that is fine. Then he needs to empower an agent for him. The group needs access to the server one way or another, through you, through mugga whatever. If it is you, fine. You can't just say "here it is, it is all set up, go for it" and blame the members when nothing is happening.


But please oh please, and this is pertinent specifically to your comments above, Mike, I'll pass now just like I did before on the premise of the adversarial relationship as a premise for developing this place. It'd just as productive to go ahead and shut the thing down as to run with that idea in my opinion.

It is coercive to say that if I don't agree with you, I am therefore in favor of an adversarial relationship.

[quote=PPLE]I'm going to take a pass on this whole class warfare analogy.

Why? If class warfare doesn't apply to life, where does it apply?


A website is NOT going to bring the revolution, is NOT going to change American opinion, and is NOT in all likelihood going to springboard forth any great writer or theoretician.

Of course it is. Why bother to otherwise?


The whole DU, PI, PFC crowd is TINY and really not terribly meaningful at all. Let's not forget that.

Why? Why must we not forget that? Politics is always driven by a very small handful of people. They don't represent the millions that they claim to, true. But they influence millions.

I don't agree with the "we don't matter" mantra. I don't agree with this idea that we can't have an impact.


We need to get over ourselves, IMO.

Bullshit. What we need tio get over ois the influenece of the finger-wagging scolding nannies diminishing and demeaning us and putting us in our place, and then when they don't like someone's strongly expressed opinion responding by playing amateur psychiatrist and analyzing what the person's "problem" might be.

I don't want to participate in any more orderly happy little kindergarten groups out on a field trip. "Now get along children, and get back in line. I want to see appropriate behavior."


That said, Wolf again made the claim the other day that Islam is a threat; it was a great post, but once again a faltering claim. Rather than induce another irrational cry-baby dust up by pointing out that that is Still utter bullshit, I decided to forgo comment. Later, when we have the infrastructure, we can take up a reasoned materialist analysis that demonstrates conclusively why that is, and always will be, destructive anti-intellectual bullshit. Folks can agree or agree to disagree, just like before except without all the unreasoned claims and fussin' because some anti-materialist commentary gets shot down in the context of a coldly *socialist* discussion.

Again, bullshit. It isn't free and open discussion wehen you descriobe the gaol as being proving someone else to be wrong, and then dismissing the dynamic that happened around that subject as though it were little children misbehaving. That may be your take on the situation, and your opinion, but you are trying to make it the default position and get everyone to comply with that. If you are going to insistson that, be honest and say "I am the boss and here is how it is going to be." Then we know where we are and can make intelligent decisions about our particiaption here.


So far, No One has endeavored with any seriousness to use Drupal.

Nor should they, not should the membership be blamed for things that stem from bad management.


If you want something else, say so and say what and say why. I am not married to this CMS, or even to CMS in general though I do understand why there is a move towards it - openness and accessibility by non-professionals who would like to develop content. Gabriel chose it as free, broadly used, rapidly improved upon, extensible, and extremely popular for the broad purpose of putting up content developed through blogs and group efforts.

You don't know what you are talking about here. This sounds like some software sales pitch.

"Who would like to develop content" WTF? "Non professionals?" WTF? A "move toward it?"

You have an end product in mind. You have a purpose for this project in mind. You need to persuade us and gain our cooperation on that. You need to spell it out and take responsibility for it, or stop hammering on us to get us to divine what it is you want, and "voluntarily" help your efforts - all the while pretending that you aren't the boss and that we have some kind of democracy. You solicit suggestions, then when I offer them tell me what is wrong with them and why they cannot be considered. You ask me for more specifics, but you are not knowledgeable enough to understand the specifics, and think that you don't need to be. That makes it impossible to discuss.

"Owner" means someone to have an intelligent discussion with about what is needed at the server. If mugga wants to be absent, that is fine. Then he needs to empower an agent for him. The group needs access to the server one way or another, through you, through mugga whatever. If it is you, fine. You can't just say "here it is, it is all set up, go for it" and blame the members when nothing is happening.


But please oh please, and this is pertinent specifically to your comments above, Mike, I'll pass now just like I did before on the premise of the adversarial relationship as a premise for developing this place. It'd just as productive to go ahead and shut the thing down as to run with that idea in my opinion.

It is coercive to say that if I don't agree with you, I am therefore in favor of an adversarial relationship.[/quote:3htsie34]

It is adversarial to say you expect to fight with the owners on a class basis.

(Edited to remove personal and potentially compromising information. Please refrain from making personal attacks and veiled threats that include offline information.) - M

I am not going to indulge you in this. I do not have time for it and nothing in the above is in search of common ground. You an your deliberate misinterpretations can play by yourselves.

You don't like it, and you are not making constructive criticism or suggestions in the above. I have no more time for that.

You are way out of line.

I will bow out.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

http://www.fontplay.com/images/fanboy.jpg
.

You can chop it all up or delete for all I care. I was only trying to inspire some reasoned exchange about what it -could- be.

That appears to be a failure.

Ummm... I like the page, but... Mixing together the writers is NOT a good idea. Not only is it not coherent but they contradict one another in what ostensibly is a single essay. One way to fix this is to edit together each writer, put a signature in to break the perspectives, and combine that way.

Sorry guys... Love ya and I know that "property is theft" and all that, but... you can all take ownership for your own screwy views...

(On edit: I made a stab at my own stuff at the beginning but don't know who the remainder belongs to. People should probably edit their own. Also, the pictures don't show up. Also, Rusty is s sneaky fuck for using my vanity to make me play with his front page...)

http://www.fontplay.com/images/fanboy.jpg
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You can chop it all up or delete for all I care. I was only trying to inspire some reasoned exchange about what it -could- be.

That appears to be a failure.

Not a failure... simply too radical all at once.
Us reds are inherently conservative.
You need an anarcho-nothingist... like chlamor.

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Another quick point is that if these things are intended to be authoratative or definitive, I don't feel I'm the one qualified to write 'em. Like anax just said, get Chlamor on this and you will have a main-page overflowing with content in no time..;) (or get Wolf if you catch him when hes really on a roll..)

Another quick point is that if these things are intended to be authoratative or definitive, I don't feel I'm the one qualified to write 'em. Like anax just said, get Chlamor on this and you will have a main-page overflowing with content in no time..;) (or get Wolf if you catch him when hes really on a roll..)

The idea is not necessarily that they are ever authoritative. Rather, I'd bet they are more often than not representations of arguments ongoing, especially given the crowd here.

It really doesn't matter. Not to worry.

If someone want to do something with it and needs help, let me know. I'll get it.

If someone wants to dump it and has an actionable suggestion, let me know. I'll act on it.

If someone wants to dump on it and bitch and complain and subvert any action, well I'm sorry to report that slot is filled until the imaginary veiled threats I seem to involuntarily spew create an opening. :roll: