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chlamor
03-15-2010, 09:17 AM
Is Ethical Capitalism Possible?

In response to the current ecological and financial crises, the call for a more sustainable and fairer globalization is gaining momentum. Building this alternative must begin with a spiritual, moral and ethical understanding of our society and economy

by Kamran Mofid

We live in a time of transition, a time when all is changing and being challenged - weather systems, ecosystems, our interaction with nature, our understanding of other beings. We now understand that we are all interconnected and interdependent. Somewhere along the line, our actions as human beings have created enormous instability to the planet and the millions of species who reside here.

Much of which is familiar to us and deemed the ‘norm' is no longer working and is being challenged. Sometimes change brings with it destruction. Sometimes destruction is beneficial. It can alert us to practices that do not work. With destruction also comes new birth, and new avenues open wide to be explored. There are many choices as to which route to take; the issue is which route is the one that will provide life for all. The golden opportunity presented by the current ongoing crises is to make the right choices that will affect the long term future for us, our descendants and our planet.

There is no denying the fact that we are in a serious state of crises, a crises of our own making, all of us and not the bankers alone. They responded to what we wanted: cheap, available, unregulated money and loads of it.

They in turn were responding to the neo-liberal agenda of the so-called Washington Consensus: Privatisation, deregulation, market forces, liberalisation, low taxation, free trade, and one glove fits all policies and more. No regards, no respect for different cultures, civilisations, religions and history. What is good for America and the West, then, must also be good for everybody else, regardless of all other factors, we were told again and again.

The tragedy is that we have now discovered that what we were pushing on others, which we thought was good for us - the so-called market-forces driven Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism - was nothing but a huge cancerous cell which at the end brought the house of cards down. The emperor has no clothes, so to say.

What to Do Now?

The current global economic crisis is deeply complex and perplexing. Many world politicians, business people, academics, activists, and civil society representatives, as well as religious and spiritual leaders, have called for a new kind of "ethical capitalism" - a moral, spiritual and virtuous economy. People everywhere are calling for an international framework of standards for an equitable and sustainable global economy to replace the current economic system of unbridled growth and increasing ecological degradation. While some look for quick short-term solutions that would perpetuate the current economic model, others see the need for more fundamental changes of the model itself. Our challenge is great. In a time of continuing crisis and polarizing viewpoints, can the world agree on an ethical approach to the global economy?

I propose a comprehensive examination of the major attempts to integrate economics with ethics and spirituality, along with an exploration of the theoretical underpinnings of these activities. In considering the need for bold economic initiatives, we must keep in mind the deeper questions that rarely find their way into political debate or public discourse.

We should explore the emerging economic issues as well matters that are deeply ethical and spiritual:

* What is the source of true happiness and well-being? What is the good life?
* What is the purpose of economic life? What does it mean to be a human being living on a spaceship with finite resources?
* How can the global financial system become more responsive and just?
* How can the world make the global trade system more equitable and sustainable?
* What paths can be recommended to shift the current destructive global political-economic order from one of unrestrained economic growth, profit maximisation and cost minimisation, to one that embraces material wealth creation, yet also preserves and enhances social and ecological well-being and increases human happiness and contentment?
* How can society overcome poverty and scarcity with limited natural resources?
* How should we deal with individual and institutionalized greed?
* What are the requirements of a virtuous economy?
* What religious or spiritual variables should be considered in economic/business ethics and economic behaviour?
* How are these components to be integrated with economic theories and decisions?
* What role should universities play in building an integrity-based model of business education?
* What should be the role of the youth?
* How might the training of young executives be directed with the intention of supplying insights into the nature of globalisation from its economic, technological and spiritual perspectives, to build supporting relationships among the participants that will lead toward action for the common good within their chosen careers?
* Indeed, is ethical, profitable, efficient and sustainable capitalism possible?

These questions and more need to be reflected upon, debated, and ultimately, answered and put into policy formation, guiding us to a more humane globalisation.

A concrete framework for understanding what has gone wrong and possible remedies, including both broad perspectives on policies and specific recommendations, must include not only an economic perspective, but also a spiritual, moral and ethical understanding.

Steps can be taken towards a sustainable economy, to turn the current crisis of casino capitalism into an opportunity for a successful, sustainable and everlasting change, where all people, wherever they may be, can live fulfilling, healthy, and yet more ecologically compatible lives.

Here are the steps I suggest:

1. Begin a Journey to Wisdom

Economics and business are all about human well-being in society and cannot be separated from moral, ethical and spiritual considerations. The idea of an economics which is value-free is totally false. Nothing in life is morally neutral. In the end, economics cannot be separated from a vision of what it is to be a human being in society.

In order to arrive at such understanding, my first recommendation must surely be for us to begin a journey to wisdom, by embodying the core values of the Golden Rule (Ethic of Reciprocity): "Do unto others as you would have them to do to you". This in turn will prompt us on a journey of discovery, giving life to what many consider to be the most consistent moral teaching throughout history.

It should be noted that the Golden Rule can be found in many religions, ethical systems, spiritual traditions, indigenous cultures and secular philosophies. Applying this universal principle can provide an enabling mechanism for the dialogue and development essential to resolving the challenges we face globally, nationally, and locally.

2. Now is the Time for a Revolution in Economic Thought

"An economist who is only an economist cannot be a good economist". Therefore, the focus of economics should be on the benefit and bounty that the economy produces, how to let this bounty increase, and how to share the benefits justly among the people for the common good.

Moreover, economic investigation should be accompanied by research into subjects such as anthropology, philosophy, politics and most importantly, theology, to give insight into our own human mystery, as no economic theory or no economist can say who we are, where have we come from or where we are going to. Humankind must be respected as the centre of creation and not relegated to short-term economic interests, as has been the case for the past few centuries.

3. Don't Repair the Economy, Change It

The current financial meltdown is the result of under-regulated markets built on an ideology of free market capitalism and unlimited economic growth. The fundamental problem is that the underlying assumptions of this ideology are not consistent with what we now know about the real state of the world. The financial world is, in essence, a set of markers for goods, services, and risks in the real world and when those markers are allowed to deviate too far from reality, "adjustments" must ultimately follow and crisis and panic can ensue.

To solve this and future financial crises requires that we reconnect the markers with reality. What are our real assets and how valuable are they? To undertake this readjustment requires both a new vision of what the economy is and what it is for, proper and comprehensive accounting of real assets, and new institutions that use the market in its proper role as servant rather than master. We have to first remember that the goal of the economy is to sustainably improve human well-being and quality of life, not the promotion of materialism, consumerism and "shop till you drop" values - especially when they are done with borrowed money!

Ultimately we have to create a new model of the economy and development that acknowledges this holistic context and vision. This new model of development would be based clearly on the goal of sustainable human well-being. It would use measures of progress that clearly acknowledge this goal. It would acknowledge the importance of ecological sustainability, social fairness and real economic efficiency.

Ecological sustainability implies recognising that natural and social capital are not infinitely substitutable for built and human capital, and that real biophysical limits exist to the expansion of the market economy.

Social fairness implies recognising that the distribution of wealth is an important determinant of social capital and quality of life. The conventional model has bought into the assumption that the best way to improve welfare is through growth in marketed consumption as measured by GDP. This focus on growth has not improved overall societal welfare, which is why explicit attention to distribution issues is sorely needed.

4. Recognise That the Economy Is Part of the Biosphere

A comprehensive economic plan must be based on the scientific fact that the global economy is a subsidiary of the natural order. Economic policies should be attuned to the limited capacity of Earth's biosphere to provide for humans and other life and to assimilate their waste. Photosynthesis and sunlight are as essential to the framework for economic budgets and expenditures as the laws of supply and demand.

5. Acknowledge That We Need New Institutions

An economic renewal tailored to the 21st century would establish institutions committed to fitting the human economy to Earth's limited life-support capacity. We need something like the central reserve banks which will look after shares of the Earth's ecological capacity, not just interest rates and the money supply. Money should be recognised as a social licence for using part of Earth's life-support capacity. Some functions of governance will have to operate at a global level through a federation modelled perhaps on the European Union, with enforceable laws designed to assure that individual nations don't overrun Earth's limits. The rules for the developed countries that are responsible for the current ecological crisis should be different from those of developing ones.

6. Fairness Matters

A "right" human-Earth relationship would recognise humans as part of an interdependent web of life on a finite planet. The economy must recognise the rights of the human poor and of millions of other species to their place in the sun. In a world awash in money, addressing poverty only with growth reflects a tragic lack of moral imagination. Indeed, in pushing for more "free" trade as it is currently understood, we would entrench an ongoing addiction to consumption, pursued in a manner that often ravages the bio-productivity of developing countries.

7. Expand the Discussion

The new knowledge that will forever mark this period in human history is the overwhelming scientific evidence that we are over-consuming the planet and accelerating toward ecological catastrophe. The short-term approaches of most ministers of finance and professional economists don't account for how the planet works, or even that the economy exists on a finite planet. Scientists morally committed to protecting the global commons and researching ecological limits to the global economy need more funding and influence in policy-making.

8. Look beyond Neoliberal Education and Short-Term Fixes

We must begin a serious debate on the role of education and what education is all about. We must greatly increase investment in educational and civic institutions that teach that we are not "consumers," but citizens of the Earth and guardians of life's prospects on a small, beautiful and finite planet. In today's largely decadent, money-driven world, the teaching of virtue and building of character is no longer part of the curriculum at many of our universities around the world. The pursuit of virtue has been replaced by moral neutrality - the idea that anything goes. For centuries it had been considered that universities were responsible for the moral and social development of students and for bringing together diverse groups for the common good.

Given the above, it is clear that we need a new economic model, enabling us to deal with new challenges, rather that rescuing and bailing out a discredited and bankrupt model, philosophy and theory.

The long-term solution to the financial crisis is therefore to move beyond the "growth at all costs" economic model to a model that recognises the real costs and benefits of growth. We can break our addiction to fossil fuels, over-consumption, and the current economic model and create a more sustainable and desirable future that focuses on quality of life rather than merely quantity of consumption.

It will not be easy; it will require a new vision, new measures, and new institutions. It will require a redesign of our entire society. But it is not a sacrifice of quality of life to break this addiction. Quite the contrary, it is a sacrifice not to.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/03/15-7

Why can't the hyenas be good vegetarians?
http://xenlogic.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/hyena-mob.jpg

chlamor
03-15-2010, 09:57 AM
Is "People are Evil", the cornerstone of Liberal thought?

Edited by anaxarchos on Fri Jul-24-09 04:59 PM

For that matter, is it the cornerstone of Progressives, Conservatives, Libertarians, and American political thought in general?

If the word, "evil", is the wrong one, then how about, "greedy", "stupid", or any other similar descriptor?

Every discussion about Progressivism, Liberalism, Conservatism, Capitalism, Foreign Policy, you name it... seems to come down to "human nature". This "nature" also seems to sit at the core of virtually the entire debate, though it is described differently each time. Sometimes quasi-religious "original sin", other times pseudo-scientific "hard-wiring", here thinly veiled Social Darwinism, there insistent promotion of the wrong "lessons of history" - always relying on a "general agreement" which is gossamer thin and defies examination - is that all there is?

Is the only real disagreement in American Politics, the question of what to do about this "self-evident truth"? Is the entire spectrum of "policy", from the need for "personal growth", to the maintenance of independent bodies and institutions which are somehow abstracted from those very same people (law, religion, the state, civil society), to the "recognition of reality" which underlies every defense of the nature of economic society, is every political construct grounded in this jive-ass cynicism, without a shred of supporting evidence?

And, if that is true, how can anybody who advances this theory exempt themselves?

If the people are "sheeple", why aren't you bleating?

anaxarchos
03-15-2010, 11:11 AM
All of this endless talk comes down to this: Capitalism is about making money and nothing else. Is it really a shock that making money, expanding Capital, could (and would) come into conflict with a whole host of things that Capital not only doesn't care about, but is totally oblivious to?

And, if that is the case, what is the "mechanism" by which Capitalism could be anything else? There is absolutely no provision for giving a shit for a single other person beyond "shareholders". That is not a "moral" or ethical statement. It is a simple, legal fact. And for those "shareholders", the purpose of the corporation is to make money. It is illegal to do anything else... the directors will invite a lawsuit.

So... HOW?

Kamran is way, WAYYY out there... beyond the moon and the stars and regulation. This ain't your standard, "we'll ban child labor and they'll figure a way to make money some other way" reform horseshit. This is some middle-class ninny teachin' new tricks to the monster, who,of course, will listen.

You'll need a revolution for those "changes", Kamran... and it won't be a "revolution in ethics".

"It will not be easy; it will require a new vision, new measures, and new institutions. It will require a redesign of our entire society. But it is not a sacrifice of quality of life to break this addiction. Quite the contrary, it is a sacrifice not to."

This guy is a bigger flake than the "Light-thinker" guy.

Kid of the Black Hole
03-15-2010, 12:39 PM
I don't know, the Light-thinker probably emits more tachyons

starry messenger
03-15-2010, 06:11 PM
http://www.globalisationforthecommongood.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=60


Education:
BA and MA in Economics, University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada (1980 and 1982)

PhD in Economics, University of Birmingham (UK) 1986

Certificate of Higher Education in Pastoral Studies, Plater (Jesuit) College, Oxford 2001



(lol

I wonder who the patron saint of capitalism is? Does anyone else think it's funny that he has degrees in economics and he's earning merit badges in Theology now?)


http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3143



The Roots of Economics -- And Why it has Gone So Wrong

by Kamran Mofid

[div class=excerpt

Spiritual Views Rediscovered

As we all know, spiritual traditions describe reality in terms rather different from those of traditional economic theory. The latter is concerned primarily with a mere fragment of human behavior, our ‘economic’ actions, those which can be quantified in terms of money. The spiritual approach is to view reality holistically, to look at all the human actions -- and even thoughts -- that make up our being and society. Sander Tideman, a founder and executive chairman of Spirit in Business, a network promoting ethics and spirituality in the business world, has written extensively on this issue, and my own reflections below rely on his insights.

In economics textbooks human beings are seen as isolated consumers and producers interacting in markets driven by the pursuit of monetary gain. In spiritual traditions people are viewed as part of a larger whole with which they can communicate by opening their hearts and minds.

The new understanding of reality is systemic, which means that it is based not only on the analysis of material structures but also on the analysis of patterns of relationships among these structures and of the specific processes underlying their formation. This is evident not only in modern physics but also in biology, psychology and the social sciences. The understanding of modern biology is that the process of life essentially is the spontaneous and self-organizing emergence of new order, which is the basis of life’s inherent abundance and creativity. Life processes are associated with the cognitive dimension of life, and the emergence of new order includes the emergence of language and consciousness.

Most economic strategies are based on the possession of material things such as land, labor and capital. What counts is how much property we own, how much money we have and how many hours we work. The ideal for many people is to own enough land and capital so that we don’t have to sell our rime. This strategy, which will be recognized by many of us in developed countries, is based on the assumption that land, labor and capital are all there is, that the real world is a closed-end system. Spiritual traditions and modern sciences claim the opposite. They recognize the unlimited potential of every sentient being, the potential to be whole and enlightened. Our minds create and pervade everything, hence physical reality is accessible to the spiritual.[/quote]


Sander Tideman

http://www.globalleadersacademy.com/gla-community/sander-tideman.php


Sander's career started as a lawyer and banker. When he turned forty, he moved to consulting, with a focus on sustainability and leadership. He launched the Spirit in Business movement through organizing major conferences around the world. It was at the first SiB conference in New York where he met and befriended Sue Cheshire with whom he conceived of the Global Leaders Academy.

Basically a "life coaching" service. It looks very expensive. I saw Al Gore's name bandied in there. Basically a bunch of assholes.

chlamor
03-15-2010, 07:03 PM
I posted your info in the comments section.

blindpig
03-16-2010, 07:49 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7927792

I'm in a foul mood anyway...

chlamor
03-17-2010, 07:41 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7936573

meganmonkey
03-17-2010, 08:08 AM
LOLOLOL

starry messenger
03-17-2010, 08:11 AM
I should have known. Damn they must have a NORAD alert just for you.

blindpig
03-17-2010, 08:13 AM
best post on the thread.

Edit: huh, I still see it.

chlamor
03-17-2010, 08:48 AM
Had to step out. Any comments happen in that salvo or did they pre-empt?

Fools must have stick poked in eye now and then.

Now I must get my face ready for the day.

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/chlamor/thumbrevrev_0.jpg

chlamor
03-17-2010, 08:53 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/missing.gif

Missing Topic

If you have any questions, please contact the site administrator.
Click here to go back to previous page.

blindpig
03-17-2010, 09:00 AM
I see it plain as day, just posted #43. Didn't use the link but can access it from the board or from 'my du'. Is this a glitch or what?

Dhalgren
03-17-2010, 09:03 AM
.

starry messenger
03-17-2010, 09:15 AM
It got seven recs and then *poof*. I posted in it to k&r and that post is still in My DU but the thread is vaporized.

starry messenger
03-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Think And Grow Rich dressed up with a Chop Wood Carry Water label. "Look at us! We're different! We have trees on our website, dammit. Trees!"

anaxarchos
03-17-2010, 10:16 AM
Hey chlams, you just made it all clear to me. I've used paper towels to make coffee lot's of times. I've used cloth and actually used socks a couple of times... on old grounds... while smokin' three day old cigarette nubs... Hmmm...

Bein' a "Leftist" is the same as not having money (with the extraneous "beliefs" thrown in for laughs).

And bein' a Liberal is havin' money... or having a deep-seated hatred of sock-coffee.

Which means if you don't have money, you can't be a Liberal (people who say they are, must be wrong).

So there are Liberals and there are people without money...

No wonder they erased you.

http://yellowj.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/kick-butt.gif

meganmonkey
03-17-2010, 10:34 AM
had typed out a really great reply to the person who said Mercuryman was playing 'divide and conquer', this friend of mine was explaining how the real divide and conquer emanates from the pseudo-oppositional 2 party system and that if we had any knowledge and honesty at all about economic theory it would be so obvious it would be blinding, and so forth and so on about leftism vs liberalism.

And after carefully editing and perfecting the post, this person I know clicked to post the message and found out that the whole thread had been deleted.

So sad.

Major meltdown over there today, it's highly entertaining, but distracting me from work.

meganmonkey
03-17-2010, 10:36 AM
mercuryman's OP with the Leftist vs liberals - didn't realize he also posted it in your thread.

You know, it used to piss me off to all hell when people would talk about DU in the GD forum here, now I just don't care anymore :)

Political Heretic
03-17-2010, 11:11 AM
See, for years I was hung up on this - asking questions similar to the one from this article. Is a kinder, gentler capitalism possible?

I got stuck on this because I wanted a system in which people still created goods and invented cool stuff. I like that we have the internet now, and can communicate with people via these computers. I used to ask how would things like this be created and produced without a capitalist incentive do so?

But something changed in me and I just don't care anymore. Or to clarify, I still want a society where we create cool things, innovate, advance technology and scientific discovery, etc. But I just don't care about answering the question of "how" to have those things if it means I have to embrace this capitalist nightmare.

I don't have all the answers for what society should look like or how it should function. All I know is that this. has got. to stop. This long nightmare of oppression and exploitation just can't go on.

And I can't even think straight about "what comes next" while I'm still in fucking chains. How about we remove the chains first and then, after breathing FREE air - put our minds together and decide how we want to organize ourselves

(preaching to the choir, I know... but it feels good.)

meganmonkey
03-17-2010, 11:20 AM
that if people aren't forced to work for their survival, or that if people won't become obscenely wealthy for inventions, then we'd all sit on our asses all day and never innovate, never improve, never do anything.

Same assumption in the welfare/unemployment debates...if we extend unemployment we are encouraging people to not look for jobs...

I think this assumption says more about the particular people making it than it does about human nature.

eta: personally, I think we'd probably have better innovation when things aren't based on profit but rather on people's wants and needs and the reality of our environment and so forth...

Political Heretic
03-17-2010, 11:27 AM
I think the propagandists of capitalism that define our culture have given me brain damage. Another thing that kept me shackled to the notion and language of "saving capitalism" is that I was brainwashed into thinking that the only options are a society that has wonderful things like advanced medicine, advanced science (medical science and discovery science) creativity and invention, etc.

"If we didn't have Capitalism, we would never have any of the things you enjoy, like electronic books (cool!) or the internet (way cool!) Nor would we have things that have saved your life (new medical procedures like the surgery I had, new medicines, etc.)"

And that the alternative to capitalism is living in huts on dirt floors, losing all impetus for scientific discovery, or technological innovation, or creative production of enjoyable things (arts and entertainment).

Now I understand why this is a false dichotomy and bullshit. Because it presumes that the only thing that could ever possibly motivate a human being to get up off his or her ass and do anything interesting is money. And that is bullshit.

Life would change with the end of capitalism, sure. Lots less "shit" would get "produced" because there are so many things that we don't even actually want much less need that we are conditions to consume. There would be a dramatic restructuring of priorities I'm sure, and many people - freed of the conditioned impulse to acquire garbage just to acquire it, would go through a massive pairing down process.

But NO, the end of capitalism does not absolutely mean a return to the dark ages. People can organize in freedom around shared interests and goals. Purposes of the heart and passions of the soul can become the driving motivations to create things, or make scientific discoveries or develop new technologies.

And who knows? Maybe we have collective communities where artisans trade their crafts with engineers who exchange their technological delights with merchants who exchange their wares - everyone giving and taking according to need...

Whatever. Again, I don't have to have a perfect vision of the future. What's important is that I know know that the notion that without capitalism, we couldn't have social, medical, cultural or technological development is bullshit. It's bullshit because it rests on the assumption that human beings are evil, or if not evil greed and selfish only, and there can be no other motivation for creativity and development.

Nonsense!

anaxarchos
03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
"It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us.

According to this, bourgeois society ought long ago to have gone to the dogs through sheer idleness; for those of its members who work, acquire nothing, and those who acquire anything do not work. The whole of this objection is but another expression of the tautology: that there can no longer be any wage-labour when there is no longer any capital."

Political Heretic
03-17-2010, 11:31 AM
...with "want" based on an entirely different criteria than capitalist conditioning.

Wants for joy... wants for enhanced community life.... NOT wants to keep up with the Joneses, wants for the sake of showing of class status, or wants beyond all reason simply because we have a conditioned impulse to buy shit.

If we could destroy the mechanism that chants CONSUME CONSUME CONSUME in our ears all day long, then we could discover how to distinguish what real needs are, AND what real meaningful, substantive "wants" are.... and use THAT as a basis and motivation for industry.

Political Heretic
03-17-2010, 11:32 AM
Smart guy, that one :D

blindpig
03-17-2010, 11:47 AM
Just sayin'.

Dhalgren
03-17-2010, 12:01 PM
As Chlamor says: "Time is coming"

PinkoCommie
03-17-2010, 04:57 PM
Ubuntu (pronounced /ʊˈbʊntʊ/),[5][6] is a computer operating system based on the Debian GNU/Linux distribution. It is named after the Southern African ethical ideology Ubuntu ("humanity towards others")[7] and is distributed as free and open source software ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_%28operating_system%29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGY9cwSjZsU

http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/pix/subversive/riaa--when-you-pirate-mp3s-youre-downloading-communism.gif

http://thepiratebay.org/

http://david.stadelmann-online.com/economics/0015_communism.jpg

http://www.openoffice.org/

http://www.videolan.org/

http://www.gimp.org/

http://www.clamav.net/lang/en/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open_source_software_packages

'tis no surprise at all that geeks are a prime target for libertarian propaganda...

http://www.zazzle.com/geek+libertarianism+gifts
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/02/0310215

Kid of the Black Hole
03-17-2010, 05:04 PM
If Ubuntu were the industry standard it is almost certain there would be a two-tiered culture of "geeks" and "non-geeks"

I know you and Mike are high on this stuff, but its pretty bogus

PinkoCommie
03-17-2010, 06:21 PM
you say this as one who very obviously knows little 'bout it.

Just sayin'.

anaxarchos
03-17-2010, 07:20 PM
I forgot my DU password...

BitterLittleFlower
03-17-2010, 07:23 PM
dammit