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blindpig
06-30-2009, 07:31 AM
LAST YEAR, more refugees were created by environmental disasters than by wars. Recent disastrous floods in Venezuela and Mozambique show the increasing toll of environmental catastrophes. Mozambique's floods may have caused the country more devastation than 16 years of vicious civil war. Does capitalism's lust for profits cause environmental as well as economic problems? How would socialism tackle the issues? BILL HOPWOOD writes.


Can Socialism Save the Planet?

CLIMATE CHANGE clearly shows capitalism's short-term, utterly irresponsible attitude towards the environment. Global warming is mainly caused by burning fossil fuels.

Already the world is getting warmer; sea level is rising; storms and flooding are increasing. Some of the first countries to welcome the new millennium, islands in the Pacific, will be under water by the end of this century.

Storm damage is increasing dramatically with growing loss of life and damage to homes and infrastructure. In 1998 natural disasters killed more than 50,000 people and destroyed $65 billion worth of property and infrastructure. Most of the victims are poor, but no country can escape.

In Canada, one of the world's most developed countries, the costs of weather-related disasters have increased ten times faster than the economy since the 1980s. In 1998 insured losses were $1.45 billion; in 1984 they were $39 million.

Despite many international conferences and overwhelming scientific evidence, most of big business and governments have made no significant change. Releases of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases need to be cut by 60% yet all that has been agreed is to reduce the rate of growth. Even these agreements aren't being met.

Wasteful system
ALL HUMAN activity depends on the environment. Food, air, water and all the goods we use originate from the material world around us, from the environment. As Marx wrote over a century ago: "Nature is just as much the source of use values as labour". (Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875)

The modern economy takes resources from the environment and turns almost all of it into waste, either by-products of making commodities or as the end of the line for the goods themselves.

In natural systems and most pre-capitalist societies, resources and end-products are inter-linked. Matter circulates, being re-used time and time again. Plants use carbon dioxide for growth and give off oxygen as waste, animals use oxygen to live and give off carbon dioxide as waste.

All living things, at the end of their lives, provide food and resources for other living forms. There are no garbage dumps of unused and unusable matter in nature.

At present, the world's energy system is extremely wasteful, based on burning fossil fuels (coal, oil and gas) which took hundreds of millions of years to produce. At the present rate of waste, there are dangers that all accessible sources could have gone up in smoke in a few hundred years, leaving only pollution.

Fossil fuels are valuable raw materials for a host of products. There are plentiful alternative sources of energy which are constantly renewed, such as wind, water and sunlight. Many of the world's largest corporations depend on burning fossil fuels for profit, however, so these are neglected.

Many potentially renewable resources - clean air and water, vegetation (crops and forests), soil and fish stocks are being damaged and used up faster than they can renew themselves.

Most "waste" - metals, plastics, paper, vegetable matter and building materials - could be re-used and should be viewed as raw materials for future processes.

Some wastes - heavy metals, pesticides, nuclear materials, some plastics etc, - are extremely hard to re-use safely or even dispose of. At present almost all these materials are dumped back into the environment - land water and air - in the hope that they sort themselves out over time.

This huge waste of potential resources damages the environment and people's lives enormously. Instead most "waste" should be re-used or recycled. The production of harmful or hard-to-recycle materials should be drastically curtailed or stopped.

Profit rules
ECONOMISTS AND business try to exclude the impacts of extraction of resources and waste disposal from their concern. Capitalism tries to avoid responsibility for the damage it does to the environment. It pushes the costs onto others, now and into the future.

If it had to pay the full costs of its actions, profits would be hit drastically, so capitalism des-cribes these cost as 'external'.

Big business's view, that the environment is outside and apart from human activity, is utterly false. But some environmentalists also hold this outlook.

All life is affected by, and has an effect on, its environment. The environment is a product of life. But concentrating on saving the 'environment', by setting aside areas of land for preservation doesn't tackle the main issues.

Of course areas of land should be maintained as parks, areas of beauty and importance to different plant and animal species. However environmental processes don't stop at the boundaries of parks.

Arctic polar bears and Antarctic penguins have modern chemical poisons in their bodies although they live thousands of miles from the sources. The solutions to environmental problems can be found in the ordinary processes of life, how goods are produced and how people live their lives.

In recent years some sections of business have reduced some of their negative impacts on the environment by making their use of energy and raw materials more efficient and reducing the amount of waste they produce.

These changes are mainly driven by profit though in some cases laws have been introduced due to pressure from below.

The average car is more energy-efficient and cleaner than 20 years ago, but the total damage caused by cars has increased as there are now so many more. Despite improved efficiency, car pollution causes 24,000 premature deaths a year in Britain.

Cleaner engines fail to solve many problems caused by cars. Cars cause congestion, dominate cities' public spaces, break up communities and encourage urban sprawl. Car-based transport consumes large areas of land and huge amounts of resources.

Of course technical improvements are welcome. Already it's possible to produce the same number of goods with a quarter of present levels of energy and materials.

The barrier is not technology; but capitalism, which depends for its survival on an ever-increasing volume of production, using more and more resources and producing more and more waste. To boost its markets, capitalism spends $1,000 billion a year on marketing.

Many products are designed to last only a few years. Capitalism constantly seeks to produce more, not mainly to satisfy human needs but to increase profits. The same motive which makes capitalist car manufacturers world-wide threaten their workforce with the sack also pollutes and kills millions.

Class issue
IN THE past, the working class were to the front in many struggles to improve the environment, such as clean water and air, and to create parks in Britain. In most of the Third World, environmental struggles are closely linked to the struggle for better living conditions.

However in the industrialised countries many prominent environmental issues were around preservation of wilderness, countryside and individual species. This approach separated concerns about the environment from social issues.

Protecting the environment was also presented as being about individual choices rather than about how society is run. Some environmental movement activists blamed workers as much as industry's owners for environmental damage. All of these put off some workers from environmental concerns.

Recently it has become more and more apparent that the working class and the poor suffer the most from environmental damage. It has also been even clearer that the main culprits are the large corporations and the governments that defend them.

Capitalism exploits both people and the environment in order to make profit. People who don't produce a profit, such as the unemployed, children and old people are put on the scrap heap. Capitalism wastes people and resources.

More and more, people see that the environment is a global issue and there are close links between environmental and social struggles.

The recent mass demonstrations on 18 June and in Seattle last November are part of the growing unity of environmentalists and labour movement activists in a common struggle against capitalism.

In the past human activity, usually through ignorance, damaged a local environment which in turn harmed the local society. But now capitalism damages environments around the world, not through ignorance but out of choice, putting profit first.

Capitalism's actions cause suffering for millions of people. The fight against capitalism is both for the benefit of people and for the environments we depend on.

To win a victory, it is better to fight for something positive rather than just against negatives. Capitalism is the cause of most of the linked environmental and economic problems of the world today.

Socialist production
Socialism offers a way of living that isn't dominated by profit, greed, exploitation, ever-increasing wasteful production and environmental damage. The real democratic running of society, where people have control over economic decisions, would make a big difference.

Production could be organised so that materials are re-used, waste is almost eliminated and what waste is produced would be treated. We could use technology and science to understand the world better, so that human activity becomes more in line with the flows of natural systems.

The economy would be organised to meet people's needs for now and the future, so environments would be protected. In other words, a socialist world would have diverse, healthy and attractive environments where people and other life would flourish.


http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/Environment.htm

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 08:43 AM
no, sorry it can not, not alone.

blindpig
06-30-2009, 12:02 PM
but as long as Capitalism is intact we ain't got a chance in hell.

Two Americas
06-30-2009, 12:04 PM
Why does it have to be alone? What does alone mean?

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 12:45 PM
Is it possible it just may destroy itself without any outside forces?

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 12:50 PM
it appears they don't need anyone elses help, not unless all see the light and join the in crowd. At least that is the impression I've gotten in the last few days.

Two Americas
06-30-2009, 01:31 PM
There are only a few people who are not any help - those defending privilege and the ruling class, while claiming to be allies - or demanding that they be seen as allies. That is maybe 10% of the population, although that group does control 90% of the national political discussion and is disproportionately represented in political organizations and on the boards.

Two Americas
06-30-2009, 01:43 PM
We would need to know what capitalism is, and how and when it arose before we can discuss "destroying" it.

If capitalism is going to destroy itself anyway, why then would we not all be strongly advocating putting an end to it before there is more suffering and the environment is further destroyed? Is it only that we have been trained to think that the only alternatives would be horrible, perhaps even worse? Could there be any connection between those irrational fears and the relentless and pervasive 24 hour a day propaganda effort over the last 100 years to get us to have those fears?

Besides, none of us has the power to "install" any imaginary "alternative system." We are talking about what we should be advocating. To think in terms of installing an alternative system presupposes an aristocracy, and betrays the fact that this is the only way the speaker can see politics. That is because liberalism represents one faction of the aristocracy, with an ongoing and relatively minor feud with another faction of the aristocracy - the "Republicans" as people imagine the enemy to be. We talk and speak and think as though we were aristocrats, landed gentry, sitting aloof on some high perch, coolly assessing the relative merits of various "systems" and "choices" and musing about "what to do with the Hottentots."

blindpig
06-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Capitalism could well destroy itself, but what's left won't be worth spit and the the human suffering in the meantime will be beyond measure.

Waiting around to see if capitalism collapses on it's own is callous and irresponsible.

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 02:30 PM
because in my view that is utterly impossible, but if you have a plan let me know

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 02:31 PM
how do you plan to destroy it?

blindpig
06-30-2009, 02:54 PM
I don't know, not for me to decide. The people in place at the time and circumstances will decide.

Oh, we might torch the Prius's and Whole Foods. There, satisfied?

TBF
06-30-2009, 03:16 PM
on the side of the people. "How exactly do we do that?"

I would refer such inquiries to the best post I've read on the Internet that spells it all out with pictures and everything:
http://progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=95990

Two Americas
06-30-2009, 03:50 PM
We are not talking about "plans," and that is a common way to shut down discussion on this. "Until and unless you can present to me a detailed plan that meets with my approval, I will not listen to any of your ideas." Of course, the subtext is that there is no such plan, could not ever be any such plan, and it would not matter if there were.

This is the John Lennon school of political thought. "You say you want a revolution, well we'd all love to see the plan." Amazing how powerful pop music lyrics can be. Ever since that recording, this "seeing the plan" idea has had a grip on people's imagination and we keep hearing it.

It is an ongoing struggle, not a choice between alternative plans. Public education is an example of taking capitalism out of something. That was accomplished, and was not "utterly impossible." However, back at the time people used the same argument against it that you are now using against discussions about socialism. Every time we set aside land for wildlife, we are "putting an end" to capitalism there.

If we were all to take a "capitalism can not be ended, and socialism can not work" position as you are here, there could never have been public education, land grant colleges, public transportation, public research, labor unions, public health agencies, national forests and parks, a standard and enforced system of weights and measures, municipal water systems, fire protection, disaster relief and on and on and on.

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 03:59 PM
n/t

seemslikeadream
06-30-2009, 04:02 PM
on edit

and what the rest of us are doing wrong

Two Americas
06-30-2009, 04:38 PM
We are mostly fending off people who are insisting that is what we are here for, and trying to figure out ways to critically analyze the failures of the political Left without people taking personal offense at what is being said.

We are talking about what ALL of us may have been doing wrong, and how to correct that. When goals are not being achieved and things are getting worse and worse, that seems like a good idea to me.

I shouldn't say "we" - I am speaking for myself here.

TBF
06-30-2009, 04:52 PM
nt

BitterLittleFlower
06-30-2009, 07:09 PM
nt

BitterLittleFlower
06-30-2009, 07:15 PM
you can speak for me too here, we are talking and brainstorming, needs to be figured out...

tomricc
07-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Most Creditor Nations already have partal Socialist Sytems Combined with Capitalism it's in many European Nations, Australia, New Zealand, Japan to a degree and Quebec

blindpig
07-21-2009, 04:46 AM
at least not for long, the capitalists inevitably seek to gain all advantage. Consider the fate of the New Deal. For that matter consider Europe today, where social gains are eroding, and that includes Scandinavia. They give ground when absolutely necessary, but will seek to regain it at the first opportunity.

Socialism requires the absence of capitalism.

tomricc
07-21-2009, 02:18 PM
In Essen Germany where my Friends live to this day they have a very Strong Socoal Safety Net.

18 month Unemployment-70% of wages and non-taxed

Welfare for anyone that needs it- 750 Euros(1065.00 U.S. monthly) plus Healthcare, many Citizens of Germany work and Collect. Several People I know of in Germany Receive this benefit and still work underneath the Table earning about $7.50 Euros an hour or $10.65 U.S./hour.

Those with Children Receive 350.00 Euros monthly per dependent including wife so a Family of 4 would receive 1800.00 Euros($2556.00 U.S per month) + Free Healthcare/Dental for all of the family.

Cheap Transportation-those that Qualify can buy Bus/Subway passes for $200.00 Euro and this lasts for 6-9 months depending on the state in Germany.

Essen has Free Tuition and Students can study in several Universities at once or change Universities.

IF the Students needs Financial Help with Living Expenses they receive a $350.00 Euros($500.00 U.S.a month Grant plus another $300 Euros($426 U.S. a month no interest loan for living expenses plus student apartment which rent for about 180.00 Euros a month including Heat, electricity and Internet.
Very Cheap 1 Euro Meals at the local Cafeteria or Pub
Very Cheap Bus/Subway Passes which cost about $200 Euros and last 9 months.
Students can do their Practicum in anothes Country for up to 2 years-Tuition Free and the Government will extend the Above Benefits while overseas.

I know of a student who went to Medical School for Free and Received another $350 Euros a month to help with living expenses.

Extensive Vocational/Techical Training System where the student goes to Classes part-time and works in their Choosen Field with a Company part-time paid for by the Government and Industry.
Students on average receive 10-12 Euros(14-17 U.S. an hour) as they learn thier trade.

Germany Has Universal Health care including Dental, Doctor House Calls in Emergencies,Spas for the Sick.

Prescriptions cost no more then $12.00 Euro and for the poor the rate is reduced further.

German Workers Receive 50 Days a Year off including Vacation time and Holidays.

Sick Days when needed-Paid

1 year leave for new Mothers after giving Birth-70% of wages paid by state.

State Paid Day Care Centers

Work Councils

Labor Unions

Cooperatives(17 million members)

Second Highest Wages in the World after Switzerland(America is not in the top 20)Mercer Survey 2006

It is a Hybrid Sytem-The European Social economy and it mixes Capitalism with Socialism and yes since the early 1950's about the time American started to become the world's Police they went the other way and became more enlightened.

And I do know what I'm talking about, I have lived in Germany

blindpig
07-21-2009, 02:59 PM
and that produces the benefits you describe. So they make up for it by exploiting overseas, workers at the local BMW plant get about a third of what German workers get. I would wager that they're really taking advantage of the people of the Balkans and Eastern Europe too. Well and good for the Germans but where's the solidarity? They are in the same position as American workers being complicit in imperialism.

All over Europe they are chiseling away at the benefits they grudgingly granted for the sole purpose of resisting the 'Red Menace', for the example of the benefits of socialism is no more. They think they have won but they have merely protracted the fight.

tomricc
07-22-2009, 01:13 AM
In Germany they tried to Institute a Small Tuition Fee and it did not go through in most Germany States now Tuition is once again Free while the few that are not the Students refuse to pay.

Child Care Benefits have actually improved the past several years in Germany many more places for state assistence on Daycare.

The only real changes in Germany is the length of the Unemployment Benefits and they still get up to 18 months sometimes it can be extended more under certain Circumstances and Welfare is still in place for anyone that needs it-singles included!

Some Germans that Receive Welfare may have to do Community Services jobs-Cleaning Windows or whatever for 4 euros an hour/20 hours a week but that is the only change.

ANd they are allowed To work 20 hours a week while receiving Welfare or Unemployment- anything under 20 hours a week and Germans are considered unemployed.
50% of the Germans who receive unemployment also work a part-time job and that is the offical count.

I know of several people in Essen who work in a Restaurant-make $7.50 Euros an hour under the table and receive $750 Euros Welfare monthly plus Free Healthcare/Dental.
So is $487 Euros($700 US Take-home a week) bad + Healthcare/Dental/Free Education if needed.
Is this bad?
ANd they still have the option of going back to COllege or Techical School for Free if they choose.
Is this bad?

Comparing workers in Florida to Workers in Germany is a joke no matter which way you slice it.

My other friend in Essen owns her own flat, drives a nice car, receives 50 days off a year including Vacation time and Holidays, Healthcare is totally covered/ Dental also,Sick Days,etc.

She makes about 20,000 Euro Take-home plus $4000 Euros bonus and she is an average worker for Essen, she's not a Teacher, or Factory worker or Professional so just an everyday worker.
Her wages and benefits equal $50,000 US(Take-home)and she works about 1650 hours yearly, so that's 30/hour in US wages/benefits($20/wages plus $10/benefits)
ANd she's from Russia originally!!

German Teachers start at $90,000 a year in US wages/Benefits
A Florida Teacher starts at 10/hour as a Temp-teacher and then $28,000 after 2 years plus they must pay for their college!

A German Doctor makes about $75,000 Euro +$30,000 Euros in Benefits, with no Tuition Costs and very low operating Expenses/Insurance costs.

Is this bad?

The Average Wages in my area of Florida is between $7.50/hr-$10.00 an hour with no benefits!

And only 38% of the 18-65 year old Population in the USA have a Full-time, Social Security paying job!

Going by this Figure say the $10/hour($7.50 after-tax) comparing this to my Germany Friend making $30/hour in Benefits/wages(after-tax) would indicate she is making 4 times more then the average Hourly worker in my Area.

And you try to compare????

Everyday I worry about what my Future is-do you understand this???

Believe me when I tell you the German People are not where we are and if they get to this point it's going to take a long time.

That is a Joke.

Again I have 6 1/2 years of College/Techical Training and I'm falling into the above $10/hour wages category and believe me Florida is not Cheap!

Explain this??????

Why can a Typical German Worker take 3 Vacations a year like my Friend in Germany- THis year she went to Canada, Isreal and Russia?

When I went to the Canary Islands with her a Few years ago I asked the Manager at the Hotel how many Americans had stayed in the resort the past year and his response was I was the second!

Russians, Japanese, Europeans,AUssies, Canadians are all over the place but not many Americans and you can use this measure anywhere in the world.

Besides a few very rich Amerians who has the time off and who has the money?

Americans think that if one travels to Europe or the Canary Islands or South America they must be at least Upper Middle Class but in Europe it is not out of the ordinary for an average German or European to Travel and Vacation around the Globe.

Go to Busch Gardens in Tampa or Walt Disney World on a Typical Day and you will find more Foreign Customers there then Natives, that's saying something again.

I bet you that in the 1950's through the 1980's Americans would be found Traveling all over the place-The powerful Dollar, Powerful Middle Class.

Debtor Nations and Creditor Nations are not the same!!!!!

ANd that's just the way it is.

As long as Germany,Sweden, Japan or the other Creditor Nations stay Creditors then the People of these Nations will get Benefits from this if the Nations becomes a Debtor then it becomes a Prison and a Dictatorship everytime.

Your Economy is your Freedom!

ANd this is nothing new, Americans thought at one point that they were above everyone else and everything but years later they find themselves in the same position that they used to make jokes about concerning other countries.

blindpig
07-22-2009, 05:02 AM
Yes, we all know that European workers are generally better off the we are. How long that difference might last is up for debate. But what is your point? That we should trade our American capitalists for European capitalists? It seems to me that the European capitalists are trying to be more 'american', every chance they get. It's what they gotta do to remain competitive in a capitalists world.