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Two Americas
10-05-2009, 03:47 PM
[div class="excerpt"]The Cash or Credit Conundrum
by Ralph Nader

Consumers rejoice. Floyd Norris has just penned a piece for the New York Times titled: "Rich and Poor Should Pay Same Price."

Mr. Norris said, it seems "absurd to have a system that requires people who do not use credit to subsidize those who do. You know there is something wrong when a middle-class person can get a part of his purchases refunded by the bank, or can collect miles good for free airline tickets, while paying the same price as a poor person who can get none of those benefits."

Mr. Norris is on to something important. He reminded me of an article I wrote in December 1985. I asked readers of my weekly column to consider some of the pitfalls of credit card purchasing. I noted that the big banks relentlessly promote credit card usage without adequately presenting the downside of credit card debt. I asked readers to imagine seeing a television presentation by an organization known as the "Cash Payment Fans of America." The made-for-television production sponsored by this imaginary organization would ask viewers to consider some counter-marketing advice with the following declaration: "Credit Cards: Maybe You DO Want to Leave Home Without Them."

Law Professor Adam J. Levitin, in a 2008 article in the Harvard Journal on Legislation reports: "On average, credit card transactions cost merchants six times as much as cash transactions and twice as much as checks or PIN-based debit card transactions." Professor Levitin also notes that in 2006 "U.S. merchants paid nearly $57 billion to accept payment card transactions, which makes this component of the payments industry larger than the entire biotech industry, the music industry, the microprocessor industry, the electronic game industry, Hollywood box office sales, and worldwide venture capital investments." These are stunning observations.

Alas, our collective imagination may not yet have evolved to the point where we can consider a day without VISA and MasterCard. The buy now, pay later credit card cabal knows few bounds. The credit card vendors want you to forget that using a credit card means you are borrowing money and that you must repay what you borrowed with interest. And, the interest rates can be staggering. Until recently credit card companies could charge annual percentage (APR) rates of up to 36 percent. And, the fine print in your credit card agreement might allow the "merchants of credit" to charge membership fees – described as "participation fees," "maintenance fees," or "activation fees" – on top of the interest fees. And don't forget the "transaction fees," for getting cash with your card, the fees for exceeding your credit limit or for making a late payment.

Ed Mierzwinski of USPIRG, a consumer watchdog organization, monitors the credit card racket and the slippery practices of banks that gouge consumers with a variety of fees. USPIRG notes that credit card issuers have tricked consumers by:

1. suddenly advancing long-standing regular due dates by five days or more to trick consumers into paying late;

2. arranging for due dates to fall on weekends and then claiming that bills received after 12 noon or 1 pm were late;

3. imposing late fees not only when bills were 30 days late, but as little as one minute or one day late; and,

4. raising the interest rate if your credit score declines.

Fortunately, some of the most egregious credit card abuses will be eliminated by legislation signed into law on May 22, 2009. The Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009, while not perfect, will generally require 45-days advance notice of any rate increase or any other significant changes in account terms, up from 15 days, and card issuers will have to inform consumers of their right to cancel their card before rate increases or account changes take effect. Credit card statements must also be mailed out 21 days before they are due. The new law also limits some interest rate hikes for late payments.

Unfortunately, the problems associated with getting on the credit card treadmill are still overwhelming. Despite some modest legislative reforms, too many credit card issuers are still predators waiting to pounce. Representative Peter Welch (Vt.) and thirteen House co-sponsors have introduced the "Credit Card Interchange Fees Act of 2009." This piece of legislation is designed to limit some of the fees credit card companies charge retailers and shed some light on the costs of credit card transactions to consumers and merchants.

Consumers can make some additional waves themselves by pretending they have joined "Cash Payment Fans of America" and for one week paying with cash for goods and services. The results could be illuminating. [/quote]

This jumped out at me:

"U.S. merchants paid nearly $57 billion to accept payment card transactions, which makes this component of the payments industry larger than the entire biotech industry, the music industry, the microprocessor industry, the electronic game industry, Hollywood box office sales, and worldwide venture capital investments."

runs with scissors
10-05-2009, 10:47 PM
Jumped out at me, too

[div class="excerpt"]"U.S. merchants paid nearly $57 billion to accept payment card transactions, which makes this component of the payments industry larger than the entire biotech industry, the music industry, the microprocessor industry, the electronic game industry, Hollywood box office sales, and worldwide venture capital investments." [/quote]
:eek:

Two Americas
10-06-2009, 08:27 AM
The banks skim from both ends - from the buyer and the seller. Both are treated as though they are lucky the bank deals with them - they are subject to all sorts of rules and qualifications. Every transaction is controlled by the bank. Talk about the troll under the bridge. What a scam. Yet if you don't use credit cards (or don't accept them as a merchant) people look at you as though you were morally defective or untrustworthy or something.

How much of the social pressure to be "normal" or "adjusted" or "successful" or "mentally healthy," to be accepted in polite company, and how much of the demands for "civility" and the like, are actually about being fleeced and pretending that we are not being fleeced?

What does it tell us when proper manners means "lie about the ongoing theft," when morality means "admire and emulate the thief," and correct social behavior means "line up peacefully for the slaughter and be docile about that, and do not speak out about it?"

Dhalgren
10-06-2009, 08:43 AM
it would be very "illuminating", indeed. My wife and I never use credit cards (my wife has one for "emergencies", but so far we have haven't had any). I read somewhere that people who do not use credit cards or who pay off their cards quickly and early are called "deadbeats" by the banks. Talk about "newspeak"...

Two Americas
10-06-2009, 09:01 AM
It is one thing to not use cards - as a personal expression of ones personal values or something. It is quite another, whether you use cards or not, to be speaking out about the scam at every opportunity.

It is one thing to try to get people to boycott credit cards and fanatasize that we could get everyone to do that. It is quite another to tell the truth about credit cards and the banking industry, and then let people make their own decisions about them, trust people to come to the right conclusions.

In each of those two examples of contrasting approaches and ways to think about this, the first is "personal choice" liberalism, and the second is rabble-rousing that can lead to solidarity and a mass movement.

"Personal choice" and "personal values" liberalism, and utopian fantasies about "if only everyone were making different choices," works against speaking the truth about the conditions, replaces rabble-rousing and prevents the building of working class solidarity.

We need to pose questions, not force answers on people. We need to upset the apple cart, not get it all in nice neat order.

"If only people didn't use credit cards" (and everything else stays the same, and we are required to take no risks) "then we would see real change" is an illusion. It is an illusion that liberals (and as we have now discovered, "progressives") are constantly promoting. The purpose of that is to keep the rabble down, and the reason they want to keep the rabble down is to protect their own (real or imagined or hoped for) status and position in the social pecking order.

Kid of the Black Hole
10-06-2009, 09:22 AM
has a credit card insignia now, and that is really convenient and tied to your bank account not a credit card. I think it is pretty unrealistic and also kind of silly to ask or expect people not to not take advantage of that feature. Its extremely handy, especially for gasoline. I mean, why not ask people to stop putting their money in banks too?

EDIT: and many, many places do not take debit cards so in those cases having the Visa/Mastercard logo determines whether you can pay electronically. And basically, otherwise you are going to be using the ATM all the time -- which tends to be around $2.50 per use even for balance statements!!!

runs with scissors
10-06-2009, 10:11 AM
and then charge the printing on a credit card

Use
Their
Tactics
Against
Them

Dhalgren
10-06-2009, 11:53 AM
I simply said what I think and do in regards credit cards - not making a statement for action. I did think that Ralph's observation of a week-long "card-out" being illuminating is true.

As far as holding "teach-ins" to illuminate the credit swindle embodied in those cards, that is a good idea. And, of course, the "teach-ins" could take almost any form, using any media...

Dhalgren
10-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Debit cards act the same as checks, I thought. Is that not correct?

Kid of the Black Hole
10-06-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm not an expert on the subject, but you can't make online purchases with your debit card except by using a service like PayPal (which is not universally available). You also can't pay anywhere that don't let you enter your PIN which is an awful lot of places (fast food and hotels are the first ones that come to mind)

Further, from what I've been told the fees charged are basically the same for debit and credit. Circle K has an ongoing campagin to get customer signatures against exorbitant banking charges and I think one of the managers was telling me about how the fees work and how insane they are.

Two Americas
10-06-2009, 02:02 PM
I used your post to go off on a rant, not directed at you. Should have made that clear, sorry.

Not sure we need teach-ins. Where we are failing to speak out is in every day life - that is where it is all happening anyway. Another way we fail is that we selectively pre-screen 90% of the people we could be talking to and ingore them. That is part of a chronic and pervaisvce proibnlem, that we see politics as separate from real life, fail to apply class analysis to daily life, and put it over in some teach-in or something as though it were a hobby - like stamp collecting. (Another rant not directed at you LOL.)

Dhalgren
10-06-2009, 06:24 PM
and applying class analysis in our everyday interactions. It can be hard to make sure that you are being successful or appropriate when simply "spreading the word" (so to speak). When you are helping a transient worker get housing or trying to haggle with the Medicaid agents for an indigent elder, you can get a better idea of how you are doing... Just thinking out loud...

Two Americas
10-06-2009, 07:57 PM
Thinking out loud is what I am doing, as well.

TBF
10-07-2009, 08:28 PM
like credit cards, depending upon your bank. I can use mine either way. For instance, I can use it for on-line purchases or to shop at stores. If I choose "credit" option the merchant pays more but I don't have to enter my pin. It is true that many hotels/car companies don't take them. We keep an Am Ex just for those purchases.

Credit cards are such a scam. The banks rely on those interest rates, and I'd love to know how many wouldn't be profitable without their credit business.