Hi everyone, I'm Nat.

I've been involved in social criticism online for about ten years. Recently, I've been posting at DU a bit. However, the atmosphere at DU is disappointing, at least for me.

I'm a bit of a strange animal, politically. Economics is my prime concern. The social "wedge" issues liberals and progressives tend obsess over generally don't interest me much. I view them as low-priority relative to economic issues. Additionally (and more problematically at DU), I don't always share the social libertarianism of liberals. If I do open my mouth on social issues, something un-liberal is liable to come out, so I stick to economics.

On that front, I'm also a bit unusual. I am definitely a leftist, but I'm really not sure whether I would qualify as a socialist. I call my view "economic humanism," because the main concern is that human beings have more genuine freedom and quality of life, by whatever means necessary. I favor single-payer health care, free education at all levels, and above all, a guaranteed minimum income that is not dependent on employment. Whether capitalism or socialism is the underlying "engine" providing these benefits has never concerned me much.

While I believe every individual who wishes to work to gain additional quality of life should have the opportunity to do so, I am fundamentally opposed to compulsory or economically-coerced employment. In simpler terms, work should be a choice, and nobody should be forced to work against their will by threats of deprivation. Also, I feel that Western culture has adopted a cult of work, or work fetish, denying us the opportunity to allow technology to automate industry and dramatically shorten the workweek. These are my most controversial views. A lot of "liberals" and "progressives" find that they can't stomach them. I'll be interested to get the reaction of socialists.

So, that's a brief introduction. I look forward to having some productive discussions here, and hopefully meeting some interesting new people.

Welcome aboard. Have a look around and check out the terrain. There's some right good stuff here, be assured I didn't write it.

Thanks. I spent a few hours reading last night, and have been reading again today. There is definitely a wealth of good stuff here and at the PopIndy board.

Welcome Nat, I've enjoyed some of your posts at DU. I lived in Washington DC for 15 years after college and pretty much hate all politicians. My interest is in helping animals, and if overthrowing capitalism saves a few million people too all the better. I agree with not working. :)

Wealth is measured in time.... Big screen TVs are incidental and unique to our age.

Wealth is measured in time.... Big screen TVs are incidental and unique to our age.


Class 7 Files: Video http://davidharvey.org/media/Capital_Class_07.mov (283.6 MB) http://davidharvey.org/media/Capital_Class_07.m4v M4V(596.9 MB) | Audio http://davidharvey.org/media/Capital_Class_07.mp3 MP3 (69.5 MB) http://davidharvey.org/media/Capital_Class_07.ogg OGG (62.2 MB).
(To download on a PC right-click on an above file and click ‘Save as’ or ‘Download to’. On a Mac Control-click instead of right-click.)

Big screens are necessary because their lies aren't small...

Nat, why is capitalism an acceptable possibility in your estimation?

Nat, why is capitalism an acceptable possibility in your estimation?

To be honest, I don't know that it is. My primary concern is liberating people from the repressive institutions that govern their everyday lives. Of these, compulsory employment is the biggest and baddest. Unfortunately, so few people agree with me and so little has ever been attempted along these lines that it isn't really clear whether the culture of coercion can be effectively undermined within a capitalist framework.

On the other hand, I don't know that socialism necessarily offers better prospects - at least historically. Production, economic growth, and full employment have been central to pretty much every formulation of socialism I've seen. I reject all of these values. Neither production or consumption are ends in themselves. Endless economic growth is not sustainable or even desirable. Work has no inherent value beyond providing a means of subsistence. Employment is an inherently oppressive institution.

What interests me above all else is moving toward a society in which the fetish for work and labor are abolished and people are free to determine what they want to do with the majority of their waking lives without fear of starvation or homelessness. Is there any formulation of socialism which addresses this?

Beyond that, I'm no fan of capitalism or of the "upscale liberals" who talk a good game from the comfort of their upscale subdivision homes. One obvious problem (in my view) is that there are simply way too many wealthy people on DU. I can smell them a mile away - they are "liberal" and "progressive" as all hell regarding every issue but money. When economic matters are brought up, they either disappear or parrot right-wing apologetics.

In many ways, this place looks like a good fit for me. I haven't succeeded in establishing myself as a "popular" personality at DU and I'm beginning to understand why. The material at this site is helping me solidify some realizations I've been coming to recently regarding "liberals" and "progressives."

Hey Nat. Good to see you. Glad you came over.

Hi Naturyl, here's a favorite song of at least one of our crew here, think you too?

Phil Ochs "Love me I'm a Liberal"

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Employment is an inherently oppressive institution.

What interests me above all else is moving toward a society in which the fetish for work and labor are abolished and people are free to determine what they want to do with the majority of their waking lives without fear of starvation or homelessness.

I love this. I've always felt capitalism is inherently oppressive, but never boiled it down to work in general. Of course many well-off women figured this out long ago. I recall girlfriends in high school telling me "I don't want to work, I want to have children and stay home". The kids are a lot of work the first 3 years, then they start going to (pre)school, and your days are free.

Working at Arby's almost killed me. I can handle my job now emotionally because it's pretty autonomous and I don't have to talk to people and it's a small local company and the owner is very nice and caring and ethical within the conventions of his culture.

But still, I can't deny the raging jealousy when I drive around and see people at home or out walking their dogs or whatever during the day. Plus, my dream since I was a little kid was to be a writer. I'm no J.K. Rowling - I can't write and work a full-time job at the same time. It can take me hours just to write a post on the internet, so I need my time free to write books. But I wasn't born into wealth and didn't marry into it so I've watched that dream shrivel and die.

The happiest time of my life was between recovering from Arby's (it took a few months for the cutting and the panic attacks when I went to the grocery store and saw slicers that looked like the ones at Arby's to stop) and starting my current job. I produced a Sims 2 story series that shot to the top of the Exchange and I was excited and happy and creative and FREE. But we needed to eat and to pay for water and power and rent and all that sort of thing, so back into slavery I went. At least now I'm a house slave.

It's funny, because my mother can't stand not working. But I think she doesn't have a lot of internal resources - she's totally extroverted and pretty much all she talks about is her job and all that she can think of to look for on the internet is the website of the company she's currently working for or employment websites if she's currently unemployed. So I would imagine that there must be other people out there like her who would choose to work.

The social stuff is important to me as well, though - I fucking hate prejudice and I do care when people are beaten, killed, are denied rights, or are discriminated against for just being who they are. Also, I consider the ability to make my own reproductive choices extremely basic to my life, because if I was forced into procreation it would only end in me killing myself. I'm already forced into slavery 10 hours a day - or more if you count having to go to bed before I'm ready so I can get up in time for work in the morning. I've got to have some freedom somewhere in my life for it to be worth living.

Anyway - I recognize your username and hi. :)

Nat, we gotta slow down a bit. I know where you're coming from with the post-industrial stuff, but isn't the current situation globally proving that perspective to be almost completely wrong? Besides, you are borderline conspiracy theorzing when you start advancing the idea that industry is intentionally not being automated. Start with John Henry (could go earlier but hes convenient) and work forward -- the lesson is precisely the opposite of your claim and its particularly acute in our own time (although from a big picture perspective thats pretty arguable)

Second, whats "work" and whats inherently oppressive about it? What happens if you're right and labour becomes "man's chief want?"

Lets roll back, fix some of the cockeyed definitions you've got going on, and see where we stand (ie whats genuine freedom?, whats quality of life?, whats "Western culture", etc).

As for the some of the social issues, think about it. We don't insist that we agree on what we like on our cheeseburger before we talk about politics do we? The question doesn't even compute. Similarly, these "cultural" issues are non-sequiturs..for the most part. Sometimes they matter, sure, but we take it as it comes on that front but to start, lets try to simplify ;)

Nat, we gotta slow down a bit. I know where you're coming from with the post-industrial stuff, but isn't the current situation globally proving that perspective to be almost completely wrong? Besides, you are borderline conspiracy theorzing when you start advancing the idea that industry is intentionally not being automated. Start with John Henry (could go earlier but hes convenient) and work forward -- the lesson is precisely the opposite of your claim and its particularly acute in our own time (although from a big picture perspective thats pretty arguable)

Second, whats "work" and whats inherently oppressive about it? What happens if you're right and labour becomes "man's chief want?"

Lets roll back, fix some of the cockeyed definitions you've got going on, and see where we stand (ie whats genuine freedom?, whats quality of life?, whats "Western culture", etc).

As for the some of the social issues, think about it. We don't insist that we agree on what we like on our cheeseburger before we talk about politics do we? The question doesn't even compute. Similarly, these "cultural" issues are non-sequiturs..for the most part. Sometimes they matter, sure, but we take it as it comes on that front but to start, lets try to simplify ;)


Maybe this is another misunderstanding and example of how I feel like I speak a different language than the other posters on here.

When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay, that it's perfectly okay for rich old white men who aren't even aware that I exist to make the most basic decision of my life, one that will irrevocably change my life forever, for me, that it's okay that people live in slums and go to schools that are falling apart and where they have to share textbooks that are decades old based on nothing but their skin tone, that there's something wrong with me for caring about people who aren't rich white male Christian fundamentalists.

But if you liken it to just choosing food - do you guys mean stuff like, I don't know, watching NASCAR?

Nat, we gotta slow down a bit. I know where you're coming from with the post-industrial stuff, but isn't the current situation globally proving that perspective to be almost completely wrong? Besides, you are borderline conspiracy theorzing when you start advancing the idea that industry is intentionally not being automated. Start with John Henry (could go earlier but hes convenient) and work forward -- the lesson is precisely the opposite of your claim and its particularly acute in our own time (although from a big picture perspective thats pretty arguable)

Second, whats "work" and whats inherently oppressive about it? What happens if you're right and labour becomes "man's chief want?"

Lets roll back, fix some of the cockeyed definitions you've got going on, and see where we stand (ie whats genuine freedom?, whats quality of life?, whats "Western culture", etc).

As for the some of the social issues, think about it. We don't insist that we agree on what we like on our cheeseburger before we talk about politics do we? The question doesn't even compute. Similarly, these "cultural" issues are non-sequiturs..for the most part. Sometimes they matter, sure, but we take it as it comes on that front but to start, lets try to simplify ;)


Maybe this is another misunderstanding and example of how I feel like I speak a different language than the other posters on here.

When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay, that it's perfectly okay for rich old white men who aren't even aware that I exist to make the most basic decision of my life, one that will irrevocably change my life forever, for me, that it's okay that people live in slums and go to schools that are falling apart and where they have to share textbooks that are decades old based on nothing but their skin tone, that there's something wrong with me for caring about people who aren't rich white male Christian fundamentalists.

But if you liken it to just choosing food - do you guys mean stuff like, I don't know, watching NASCAR?


Misty, wise-up. You wanna save the world? Really? Really?? Because I don't think you do. In fact I think your whole schtick is completely full of shit.

Since you "care" so much where do you start? Well, half of the world doesn't have sanitary water, can't afford food, live on less than $2/day, work 15 hour shifts in sweatshops, sold into sexual slavery..and all of those things disporportionately affect WOMEN Misty. I don't recall you ever acknowledging any one of these problems exist.

When it comes down to it, anything you do other than renouncing all your worldly possessions and living in abject poverty isn't solidarity with your fellow workers, is it?

Personal conviction, desire, and "caring" aren't gonna change shit Misty let alone save the world. But its moot, because you're really just here to bitch about your shitty life anyway.

Nat, we gotta slow down a bit. I know where you're coming from with the post-industrial stuff, but isn't the current situation globally proving that perspective to be almost completely wrong? Besides, you are borderline conspiracy theorzing when you start advancing the idea that industry is intentionally not being automated. Start with John Henry (could go earlier but hes convenient) and work forward -- the lesson is precisely the opposite of your claim and its particularly acute in our own time (although from a big picture perspective thats pretty arguable)

Second, whats "work" and whats inherently oppressive about it? What happens if you're right and labour becomes "man's chief want?"

Lets roll back, fix some of the cockeyed definitions you've got going on, and see where we stand (ie whats genuine freedom?, whats quality of life?, whats "Western culture", etc).

As for the some of the social issues, think about it. We don't insist that we agree on what we like on our cheeseburger before we talk about politics do we? The question doesn't even compute. Similarly, these "cultural" issues are non-sequiturs..for the most part. Sometimes they matter, sure, but we take it as it comes on that front but to start, lets try to simplify ;)


Maybe this is another misunderstanding and example of how I feel like I speak a different language than the other posters on here.

When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay, that it's perfectly okay for rich old white men who aren't even aware that I exist to make the most basic decision of my life, one that will irrevocably change my life forever, for me, that it's okay that people live in slums and go to schools that are falling apart and where they have to share textbooks that are decades old based on nothing but their skin tone, that there's something wrong with me for caring about people who aren't rich white male Christian fundamentalists.

But if you liken it to just choosing food - do you guys mean stuff like, I don't know, watching NASCAR?


Misty, wise-up. You wanna save the world? Really? Really?? Because I don't think you do. In fact I think your whole schtick is completely full of shit.

Since you "care" so much where do you start? Well, half of the world doesn't have sanitary water, can't afford food, live on less than $2/day, work 15 hour shifts in sweatshops, sold into sexual slavery..and all of those things disporportionately affect WOMEN Misty. I don't recall you ever acknowledging any one of these problems exist.

When it comes down to it, anything you do other than renouncing all your worldly possessions and living in abject poverty isn't solidarity with your fellow workers, is it?

Personal conviction, desire, and "caring" aren't gonna change shit Misty let alone save the world. But its moot, because you're really just here to bitch about your shitty life anyway.


I have, what, 6 posts on here? Sorry that I haven't covered every damn thing in the world in those six posts. I am aware of those problems. Make a thread about them and I'll post about them there. Although I'm not sure how posting about them is going to help. There's less than 30 members here, so even if you think that raising awareness individual by individual can help it's still not going to do a whole lot of good. Posts on a tiny message board don't give people water and food and don't help them get out of slavery. Not unless you have information and resources that can help people take action IRL.

Have you given up all of your possessions? Does everyone here live on the street and post from a library? If not, then what are you doing here?

As far as possessions go - I don't have a ton of them. I'm not exactly a rich DU poster sitting around all day in my McMansion. I mostly have what I need to get by, although you can certainly argue the computers and net connection. But again - if you guys don't have that unnecessary luxury then how are you posting?

LOL - my life is the exact opposite of shitty. Sure, I have to work, but my actual job now is pretty cool and all the non-work bits of my life rock. It's just that the past shittiness of Arby's and the fact that the current job, nice as it is, takes so much of my time seemed relevant to the points I was making in the six posts that I have made so far.

And I guess this seventh one will be my last. No, I'm not doing what I want to do. I don't have all the answers yet and I'm still trying to figure out what I can do and what's worth doing to help "save the world" - which is okay with me. The answers will come when they come. But whatever those answers will be, I know that they don't involve being insulted for not living up to the dogmatic and rigid expectations of random strangers on the internet.

When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay, that it's perfectly okay for rich old white men who aren't even aware that I exist to make the most basic decision of my life, one that will irrevocably change my life forever, for me, that it's okay that people live in slums and go to schools that are falling apart and where they have to share textbooks that are decades old based on nothing but their skin tone, that there's something wrong with me for caring about people who aren't rich white male Christian fundamentalists

If I may so bold as to speak for "you guys".
Misty, the problem here is that this piecemeal running around willy-nilly is not only ineffective, it is counter-productive. All of the above, when presented as such simply provide wedges which only serve to divide the people without accomplishing much else. To say that the people on this site don't care about these things is slander, it is just that we recognise that these and other things all derive from the same source and that this source must be addressed or we are wasting our time.

Glad you are back Misty.


Maybe this is another misunderstanding and example of how I feel like I speak a different language than the other posters on here.

Misty, everyone speaks a different language from the Kid lol.


When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay...

There is no stronger straight defender of the GLBT community than I am.

I have never said that social issues are not important - never.

I have never said that you are so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them.


..

Does everyone here live on the street and post from a library? If not, then what are you doing here?

That has pretty much been my situation through the winter.


I know that they don't involve being insulted for not living up to the dogmatic and rigid expectations of random strangers on the internet.

I would never insult you for that, and never have.

Also, many of the people online are not random strangers to me. No need for you to be either.

Have you given up all of your possessions? Does everyone here live on the street and post from a library?

Nope as the resident liberal in recovery I am one with way too many possessions, especially when you consider what has been added to the household with children. But like many liberals I also have overwhelming debt. I won't go into a lot of detail, except to say staying in school forever costs a lot of money, and credit cards are evil. Our current abode is nice, and in a great school district, but it is a rental. You, my dear, as a home owner are way ahead of me. By most elite liberal thought processes anyway... I might try harder to conform if I could convince my spouse to leave Texas, but nothing he can say really inspires me to want to own a house, much less in this state.


The answers will come when they come. But whatever those answers will be, I know that they don't involve being insulted for not living up to the dogmatic and rigid expectations of random strangers on the internet.

For me some of those answers starting coming last summer. At least OET was good for something. When I found myself thinking most of DU was rubbish during the campaign season I looked for other websites. And I finally found some things that actually made sense to me in Chlamor, BP, and Mike's posts. Kid and Anax are still way over my head but I try. :)

The thing is, Misty, they are right. We all have our issues that are important to us but the common denominator is that capitalism itself is the source of these problems. When you get to the point that you feel the same, our posts will make sense. And you are smarter than me so I know you will understand the economics side of it much better than I ever will. I still think you're cool. Peace.

Nat, we gotta slow down a bit. I know where you're coming from with the post-industrial stuff, but isn't the current situation globally proving that perspective to be almost completely wrong? Besides, you are borderline conspiracy theorzing when you start advancing the idea that industry is intentionally not being automated. Start with John Henry (could go earlier but hes convenient) and work forward -- the lesson is precisely the opposite of your claim and its particularly acute in our own time (although from a big picture perspective thats pretty arguable)

Second, whats "work" and whats inherently oppressive about it? What happens if you're right and labour becomes "man's chief want?"

Lets roll back, fix some of the cockeyed definitions you've got going on, and see where we stand (ie whats genuine freedom?, whats quality of life?, whats "Western culture", etc).

As for the some of the social issues, think about it. We don't insist that we agree on what we like on our cheeseburger before we talk about politics do we? The question doesn't even compute. Similarly, these "cultural" issues are non-sequiturs..for the most part. Sometimes they matter, sure, but we take it as it comes on that front but to start, lets try to simplify ;)


Maybe this is another misunderstanding and example of how I feel like I speak a different language than the other posters on here.

When you guys talk about social issues and how they're not important and how we have to compromise on them and how I'm so horrible and evil and wrong for caring about them, I hear that it's perfectly okay to beat people to death for being gay, that it's perfectly okay for rich old white men who aren't even aware that I exist to make the most basic decision of my life, one that will irrevocably change my life forever, for me, that it's okay that people live in slums and go to schools that are falling apart and where they have to share textbooks that are decades old based on nothing but their skin tone, that there's something wrong with me for caring about people who aren't rich white male Christian fundamentalists.

But if you liken it to just choosing food - do you guys mean stuff like, I don't know, watching NASCAR?


Misty, wise-up. You wanna save the world? Really? Really?? Because I don't think you do. In fact I think your whole schtick is completely full of shit.

Since you "care" so much where do you start? Well, half of the world doesn't have sanitary water, can't afford food, live on less than $2/day, work 15 hour shifts in sweatshops, sold into sexual slavery..and all of those things disporportionately affect WOMEN Misty. I don't recall you ever acknowledging any one of these problems exist.

When it comes down to it, anything you do other than renouncing all your worldly possessions and living in abject poverty isn't solidarity with your fellow workers, is it?

Personal conviction, desire, and "caring" aren't gonna change shit Misty let alone save the world. But its moot, because you're really just here to bitch about your shitty life anyway.


I have, what, 6 posts on here? Sorry that I haven't covered every damn thing in the world in those six posts. I am aware of those problems. Make a thread about them and I'll post about them there. Although I'm not sure how posting about them is going to help. There's less than 30 members here, so even if you think that raising awareness individual by individual can help it's still not going to do a whole lot of good. Posts on a tiny message board don't give people water and food and don't help them get out of slavery. Not unless you have information and resources that can help people take action IRL.

Have you given up all of your possessions? Does everyone here live on the street and post from a library? If not, then what are you doing here?

As far as possessions go - I don't have a ton of them. I'm not exactly a rich DU poster sitting around all day in my McMansion. I mostly have what I need to get by, although you can certainly argue the computers and net connection. But again - if you guys don't have that unnecessary luxury then how are you posting?

LOL - my life is the exact opposite of shitty. Sure, I have to work, but my actual job now is pretty cool and all the non-work bits of my life rock. It's just that the past shittiness of Arby's and the fact that the current job, nice as it is, takes so much of my time seemed relevant to the points I was making in the six posts that I have made so far.

And I guess this seventh one will be my last. No, I'm not doing what I want to do. I don't have all the answers yet and I'm still trying to figure out what I can do and what's worth doing to help "save the world" - which is okay with me. The answers will come when they come. But whatever those answers will be, I know that they don't involve being insulted for not living up to the dogmatic and rigid expectations of random strangers on the internet.


Bullshit, all bullshit. You cry about the same damn things here as you did on OET. I get it, you have "issues".

You put on a great righteous facade about how you "care" about myriad issues, but in the final analysis they all revolve around you.

My point is, you're not even trying to overcome your massive self-involvement or trying to think through your dopey ideas -- "I care about this, this and that other!" Big Fucking Deal. That and $4.29 buys you a Happy Meal. Other than feeling glum and being "emo", what does your way offer? At best its liberal guilt, and in this case a very self-serving kind at that..