Big Business Is Even More Unpopular Than You Think
by Robert Weissman
The U.S. public holds Big Business in shockingly low regard.

A November 2007 Harris poll found that less than 15 percent of the population believes each of the following industries to be “generally honest and trustworthy:” tobacco companies (3 percent); oil companies (3 percent); managed care companies such as HMOs (5 percent); health insurance companies (7 percent); telephone companies (10 percent); life insurance companies (10 percent); online retailers (10 percent); pharmaceutical and drug companies (11 percent); car manufacturers (11 percent); airlines (11 percent); packaged food companies (12 percent); electric and gas utilities (15 percent). Only 32 percent of adults said they trusted the best-rated industry about which Harris surveyed, supermarkets.

These are remarkable numbers. It is very hard to get this degree of agreement about anything. By way of comparison, 79 percent of adults believe the earth revolves around the sun; 18 percent say it is the other way around.

The Harris results are not an aberration. The results have not varied considerably over the past five years — although overall trust levels have actually declined from the already very low threshold in 2003.

The Harris results are also in line with an array of polling data showing deep concern about concentrated corporate power.

An amazing 84 percent told Harris in a poll earlier in 2007 that big companies have too much power in Washington. By contrast, only 47 percent said that labor unions have too much power in Washington (as against 42 percent who said labor has too little power), and 18 percent who said nonprofit organizations have too much power in Washington.

These results have proven durable. At least 80 percent of the public has ranked big companies as having too much power in Washington since 1994. In 2000, Business Week and Harris asked a broader question: Has business gained too much power over too many aspects of American life? Seventy-four percent agreed.

The November 2007 poll also asked about support for measures to control corporations. These results are eye-opening as well, though perhaps not in the expected way.

Harris asked which industries “should be more regulated by government — for example for health, safety or environmental reasons — than they are now?” Only oil companies (53 percent), pharmaceutical companies (53 percent) and health insurance companies (52 percent) crossed the 50 percent threshold. Even the tobacco industry managed to escape in the survey with only 41 percent favoring greater regulation. These data trend significantly negative — against greater regulation — over the last five years.

Does this show that while people distrust Big Business, they equally distrust the government to constrain corporate power?

No.

The U.S. skepticism to regulation is only skin deep. When polls present specific regulatory proposals for consideration, U.S. public support is typically strong and often overwhelming — even when arguments against government action are presented.

For example:

After hearing arguments for and against, 76 percent favor granting the Food and Drug Administration regulatory authority over tobacco, with 22 percent opposed.
[/*:m:3agw8lkz]
After hearing arguments for and against, 75 percent favor legislation that would significantly increase energy efficiency, including auto fuel efficiency standards, and the use of renewable energy.
[/*:m:3agw8lkz]
Eighty-five percent favor country-of-origin labeling for meat, seafood, produce and grocery products, and three quarters favor a legislative mandate.
[/*:m:3agw8lkz]
Seventy-one percent say it is important that drugs remain under close review by the FDA and drug companies after they have been placed on the market.[/*:m:3agw8lkz]

And, from a Harris finding a week after the poll showing skepticism about industry regulation in general, the polling agency found that those who think there is too little government regulation in the area of environmental protection outpaced those who think there is too much by a more than 2-to-1 margin (53 to 21 percent).

What the Harris findings on attitudes to regulation do show is that the business campaign against regulation as an abstract concept has been very successful.

It highlights the need for consumer, environmental, labor and other corporate accountability advocates to defend the concept of regulation, and to connect the rampant corporate abuses in society with the deregulation and non-regulatory failures of the last three decades. There’s little doubt that the general public attitude toward regulation significantly affects the willingness of politicians — none to eager to offend business patrons in the first place — to take on corporate power.

Dear Optimist,

So, how do we get from here to there? The people are dissatisfied, so new? How does this translate to major social change? The vast majority still have their comforts, plentiful, if crummy, food, TV, sports, how ya gonna compete with that? And what about all of those "wedge", social issues that have been used so well to disguise, distract and misdirect so effectively?

As for people's faith in government, what advantage is that? They do not see the government as the enbodiment of the people's will but some monolithic presence, god, daddy or something. It is outside of them, how does this translate into anticapitalist action?

What, the working class intellectuals must step up to agitate and educate? :roll: Show me how this is done, I see nothing but Scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion.

Are the people really ready? Are we?

Sincerely,

Devil's Advocate

confusion, denial, vested interests(real and imaginary), etc & so forth:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 89x2748878 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2748878)

Dear Optimist,

So, how do we get from here to there? The people are dissatisfied, so new? How does this translate to major social change? The vast majority still have their comforts, plentiful, if crummy, food, TV, sports, how ya gonna compete with that? And what about all of those "wedge", social issues that have been used so well to disguise, distract and misdirect so effectively?

As for people's faith in government, what advantage is that? They do not see the government as the embodiment of the people's will but some monolithic presence, god, daddy or something. It is outside of them, how does this translate into anticapitalist action?

What, the working class intellectuals must step up to agitate and educate? :roll: Show me how this is done, I see nothing but Scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion.

Are the people really ready? Are we?

Sincerely,

Devil's Advocate

You assign me a virtually impossible task, which I think is your way of expressing your opinion that anything anyone could suggest would be impossible. I will respond point by point.

"How do we get from here to there?"

There is no quick answer to this, although I am thinking that I will put in the time required to develop the long answer. The is no overcoming the resistance represented by the idea that if we don't know the whole answer, we can't discuss any part of the answer, that if we can't see the entire process, then we refuse to see any first steps. Isn't this a variation on the old "oh yeah, you sure have a lot of criticism, but if you're so smart what's your plan?" thinking that is used to dismiss all social critics? You are saying that we can't get from here to there - the is revealed in your subsequent comments - but rather than saying that forthrightly you challenge me to show you how we get from here to there. The implication being that I cannot.

"The people are dissatisfied, so new?"

If public dissatisfaction means nothing, then are we to imagine that satisfaction with the status quo is preferable?

"How does this translate to major social change?"

Again, I think you are saying that it cannot. Perhaps if I could come up with some perfect answer you would then seriously consider the question.

"The vast majority still have their comforts..."

I thought you agreed that the people were dissatisfied?

"How ya gonna compete with that?"

Again, the covert message. You are saying that I cannot compete with that, anmd putting it in the form of a challenge rather than saying it. Why would one want to "compete with that?" Why must we assume that this is the task?

"And what about all of those "wedge", social issues...."

Again, you are saying that these cannot be overcome and challenge me to prove to you that they can or accept your view that they cannot as the assumption we must make. I would say that if you think that wedge issues are some enormous barrier to overcome, that you haven't analyzed the subject very thoroughly. They wouldn't be wedge issues if they had much substance or durability. Their power lies in thinking they have substance, and you ask us to accept that as a prerequisite to discussing the subject.

"As for people's faith in government, what advantage is that?"

It contradicts the current ruling class propaganda. Again, what are you saying? That it would be preferable if everyone embraced the libertarian "government is evil" propaganda?

"...monolithic presence, god, daddy or something."

Funny, I just caught a little bit of Limbaugh on the car radio, and he was talking about what people look to government for and used almost the same words that you are using here.

"It is outside of them, how does this translate into anticapitalist action?"

If people are looking outside of the "free market" libertarian paradigm, that is a basis for ant-capitalism. But again you challenge me rather than stating your opinion that it cannot translate into anticapitalist action, and demanding that I prove to you that it can before you will consider the question. Unless I make the perfect argument - and probably not even then - we default to your assumption.

"What, the working class intellectuals must step up to agitate and educate?"

You mock this idea? Heard it all before, have you? Not buying it?

"Show me how this is done, I see nothing but Scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion."

Do you mean that is all you see from me? Or from whom? Up until this statement you were arguing that nothing can be done. Now you are complaining that nothing is being done. This is the core ruling class argument, BP. By that I mean the precise pattern of thinking that apologizes for and defends the interests of the ruling class and that renders any who could be agitators not only impotent and useless, but places them squarely in the service of the ruling class. You lament the circular arguments, but can you not see the circle you just ran?

No one would overtly argue in favor of poverty, for example. But what a person can do is to argue that anyone talking about poverty "has no plan" so therefore can be dismissed; that "nothing is being done" by anyone and they are all engaged in "scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion" so therefore nothing [i]can[/i[] be done; and that the people are happy being poor, so they are useless and that represents a barrier that cannot be overcome.

The person using those arguments would be much more honest if they said "I favor poverty." The reason that they don't is twofold. First, they would need to recognize unpleasant things about themselves - their inhumanity and their cowardice and their lack of imagination. Secondly, it would not be effective at maintaining poverty, since it would expose the lies that are essential for poverty to persist. So we are rewarded in various ways for couching our support for poverty in the types of arguments that you used to refute what I said.

"Are the people really ready?"

Ready for what? I am refuting the pervasive notion that "the people are not ready," so therefore nothing can be done. What is it that the people who say this are imagining? What would you have the people be ready for? I think this is an excuse to do nothing, even to the point of refusing to consider my point. I may be wrong about where the general public is and what can be done with that, but I can't help noticing that there is massive resistance to even discussing it.

Again, I am going to say that you are making a ruling class argument here. The core of this argument is that "things are the way they are, whaddya gonna do, they never change" (insert shoulder shrug.) But things are changing. The wealthy and powerful are not standing still, they are aggressively and relentlessly moving against the people. No one would say "I favor the ongoing destruction of the people and the earth's resources by the few" and the dynamic is exactly the same as the one in my poverty example above.

Why are the people presumed to be ready to be raped, but not ready to resist? I think this is a clever way to say that the people are not being raped, or at least not enough for us to be alarmed about or do anything about. What a cop out.

"Are we?"

Are we what? Are we ready to examine the contradictions in our own minds that I described above, are we ready to see that we are already putting a tremendous amount of energy into serving the ruling class, and that this is the problem we need to tackle? Are we ready to stop seeing ourselves as neutral or benign or detached from the game? Are we ready to stop with the self-serving and lazy and illogical assertions that of "don't get me wrong I am all in favor of socialism, but...?"

Are we ready to see that we are cleverly lying to ourselves and to each other about this?

That is an open question.

BP, I agree with Mike's diagnosis but I'm not sure that was "you" talking lol But anyway, think about it from a different perspective.

You're kinda asking how we can ever generate struggle against the State, the status quo, the System, capitalism, etc (we can speak pretty open-endedly for the moment). Well, there are already people who's very lives represent that struggle in this country. That's because at the very bottom, your survival IS a constant struggle vs those forces that wouldn't blink to see you lying dead.

Thats what Dr King was shouting in the months before he was assassinated. Thats where Minister Louis Farrakan is at. Two giants in the history of the United States, and neither was ever frightened of creature comforts undermining their platform.

(Note to Anax -- you mentioned the Minister once a LONG time ago, I figured it out)

how we can ever generate struggle against the State, the status quo, the System, capitalism, etc

Already happening. I think it is important to see that, kid. We call the resisters losers, inmates, mentally ill, criminals, trouble, dreamers...

What is lacking is analysis, direction, focus, organization, and leadership. Anax is the one who can out this into the right perspective and context and I can see I am going to have to dig in on that myself since I am making no headway on it the way I am approaching it.

I know that I would rather be making trouble than not, and while it is true that what people have in mind when they say "do something!" really means do something without challenging anything on any profound level, it seems to me that people are already doing things, and would be willing to do other things that would make trouble if they had a little direction. But I am completely alone in this view and may well be delusional for all I know. Most of the time I feel as though I were living on a different planet than other people, since what they see and what I see are so radically different. Wolf is one of the few people who sees what I see.

Aside from what the intellectuals are thinking and saying, and aside from what the general public is ready for, what I see is a chasm between the intellectuals and the general public that has nothing to do with either of those. Given that, I don't know how anyone can say what the people are or are not ready for nor what can and cannot be done. Mostly people are saying that nothing can be done and that the people are ready for nothing. Yet we are ready to do the things we are doing - why is that and what is that based on? The people are plenty ready to suffer - why is that and what is that based on? Obviously there is a readiness for something, and obviously people are doing something.

At what point does saying the people are not ready for the right thing, and saying that we are not doing the right things become merely a way to avoid looking at what is happening, at what we are doing, and an excuse for accepting things the way they are?

Most of the time I feel as though I were living on a different planet than other people, since what they see and what I see are so radically different. Wolf is one of the few people who sees what I see.

You're not crazy, you're just a little unwell (sorry, that was bad). It really wouldn't matter what we decreed the people were ready for. We can make enough proclamations for a lifetime and it matters not. The people are "ready" in that they are primed as you say. They are not ready as an organized force that will move in concert. That's our job, to ready them as such. Our job isn't to tell anyone what to do, that's going to be circumstantial and spontaneous although contained within a theoretical framework that we are also partially responsible for articulating.

For now we're biding out time, but an American Revolution -- of much greater scope and import than either the original or the Civil War -- is brewing. Do something? Ha! Soon enough all we'll be able to do is get out of the way.

Right now, the signs we see amounts to reading entrails and riddling oblique rhymes. But the picture gets clearer every day.

You're not crazy, you're just a little unwell (sorry, that was bad). .

Yeah, real bad, punk. What a horrible song. And Mike probably doesn't even know what you're referring to and now I have the worst earworm I've had all week. And where I work, there is a constant effort to implant horrible earworms in one another. I mean, this is even worse than Macho Man which was stuck in my head all day Monday thanks to one of the warehouse dudes.

I hope your dreams are haunted by a treacherous medley of Macho Man and Unwell or whatever it's called.

:P

You're not crazy, you're just a little unwell (sorry, that was bad). .

Yeah, real bad, punk. What a horrible song. And Mike probably doesn't even know what you're referring to and now I have the worst earworm I've had all week. And where I work, there is a constant effort to implant horrible earworms in one another. I mean, this is even worse than Macho Man which was stuck in my head all day Monday thanks to one of the warehouse dudes.

I hope your dreams are haunted by a treacherous medley of Macho Man and Unwell or whatever it's called.

:P

This Macho Man?

(snap into a Slim Jim!)
http://olympia.fortunecity.com/stonecold/443/savage.jpg

as for the actual content of the thread here, I dunno. I used to read Mike's essays/rants and they really sunk in and gave me much optimism. But right now that isn't happening so easily. I could blame my personal lack of optimism and motivation on all sorts of things so it's irrelevant really but I wonder if there is an empirical way to determine the 'readiness' of the people. It's just so speculative. Anecdotes can be encouraging and inspiring but at the end of the day where are we at, really?

The people around me are mostly broke and struggling, and just sort of floundering with no end in sight. Most of them 'get it' politically but they certainly don't feel empowered by that knowledge. They can't even win against their shitty landlord or their boss (if they're lucky enough to have a job) so how can they win against the big guns? And keep in mind I'm not talking about a bunch of 30 yr olds here. I'd say the average age of the folks I hang out with regularly is mid-40's with some in their 60s and me often being the youngest. Kinda like here, heh.

I don't know. Mike, I'm glad you have newswolf who sees things like you do. I used to be able to believe what you were seeing even though I didn't see it myself so I could at least respond with enthusiasm but now I'm not so sure.

Then again I am in Ann Arbor, lol, where the goddamn flatlanders come from, so what the hell do I know? :wink:

[quote="Kid Of The Black Hole":3lh70u2t]

You're not crazy, you're just a little unwell (sorry, that was bad). .

Yeah, real bad, punk. What a horrible song. And Mike probably doesn't even know what you're referring to and now I have the worst earworm I've had all week. And where I work, there is a constant effort to implant horrible earworms in one another. I mean, this is even worse than Macho Man which was stuck in my head all day Monday thanks to one of the warehouse dudes.

I hope your dreams are haunted by a treacherous medley of Macho Man and Unwell or whatever it's called.

:P

This Macho Man?

(snap into a Slim Jim!)
http://olympia.fortunecity.com/stonecold/443/savage.jpg[/quote:3lh70u2t]

No, silly, this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/meganmonkey/1155771860891_1154499241339_Village.jpg

I can't see your pic but I know exactly who it is. Gee, thanks, 80s! What a great decade that was!
Periodically I'll eat a Slim Jim when I come across one and I always feel like I'm gonna die afterwards. Kliljedahl makes a damn good homemade jerky though.

One of the saddest, most pathetic sights I remember seeing is the Ultimate Warrior trying to sell Slim Jims. Only the Macho Man is up to the task.

And, actually -- as you may know -- Village People is sort of a double entendre where I live..;)

as for the actual content of the thread here, I dunno. I used to read Mike's essays/rants and they really sunk in and gave me much optimism. But right now that isn't happening so easily. I could blame my personal lack of optimism and motivation on all sorts of things so it's irrelevant really but I wonder if there is an empirical way to determine the 'readiness' of the people. It's just so speculative. Anecdotes can be encouraging and inspiring but at the end of the day where are we at, really?

The people around me are mostly broke and struggling, and just sort of floundering with no end in sight. Most of them 'get it' politically but they certainly don't feel empowered by that knowledge. They can't even win against their shitty landlord or their boss (if they're lucky enough to have a job) so how can they win against the big guns? And keep in mind I'm not talking about a bunch of 30 yr olds here. I'd say the average age of the folks I hang out with regularly is mid-40's with some in their 60s and me often being the youngest. Kinda like here, heh.

I don't know. Mike, I'm glad you have newswolf who sees things like you do. I used to be able to believe what you were seeing even though I didn't see it myself so I could at least respond with enthusiasm but now I'm not so sure.

Then again I am in Ann Arbor, lol, where the goddamn flatlanders come from, so what the hell do I know? :wink:

You gotta trust yourself more. Wolf caught it, the line about the straw breaking the camel's back.

Its why Anax keeps telling us about Revolutionary Russia, even though we never really get it. Its why Mike reminds us over and over that almost a million Mexicans have been rounded up for no other reason than being Mexican (even though, again, we may not really get it)

Whole sectors of the proletariat are already in a life and death daily struggle. More and more people enter that Labyrinth every day. Those are the footsoldiers of the Revolution. Not a social democratic revolution but the overturning of private property itself. It ain't gonna happen tomorrow but, in equal measure, it IS going to happen.

Meet the new advance team, same as the old advance team (us)

(I know it sounds really ambiguous and thats frustrating but we're ARE getting some place)

as for the actual content of the thread here, I dunno. I used to read Mike's essays/rants and they really sunk in and gave me much optimism. But right now that isn't happening so easily. I could blame my personal lack of optimism and motivation on all sorts of things so it's irrelevant really but I wonder if there is an empirical way to determine the 'readiness' of the people. It's just so speculative. Anecdotes can be encouraging and inspiring but at the end of the day where are we at, really?

The people around me are mostly broke and struggling, and just sort of floundering with no end in sight. Most of them 'get it' politically but they certainly don't feel empowered by that knowledge. They can't even win against their shitty landlord or their boss (if they're lucky enough to have a job) so how can they win against the big guns? And keep in mind I'm not talking about a bunch of 30 yr olds here. I'd say the average age of the folks I hang out with regularly is mid-40's with some in their 60s and me often being the youngest. Kinda like here, heh.

I don't know. Mike, I'm glad you have newswolf who sees things like you do. I used to be able to believe what you were seeing even though I didn't see it myself so I could at least respond with enthusiasm but now I'm not so sure.

Then again I am in Ann Arbor, lol, where the goddamn flatlanders come from, so what the hell do I know? :wink:

You gotta trust yourself more. Wolf caught it, the line about the straw breaking the camel's back.

Its why Anax keeps telling us about Revolutionary Russia, even though we never really get it. Its why Mike reminds us over and over that almost a million Mexicans have been rounded up for no other reason than being Mexican (even though, again, we may not really get it)

Whole sectors of the proletariat are already in a life and death daily struggle. More and more people enter that Labyrinth every day. Those are the footsoldiers of the Revolution. Not a social democratic revolution but the overturning of private property itself. It ain't gonna happen tomorrow but, in equal measure, it IS going to happen.

Meet the new advance team, same as the old advance team (us)

(I know it sounds really ambiguous and thats frustrating but we're ARE getting some place)

Ok I have no idea what you guys are talking with those pop culture references.

And please stop accusing me of optimism! I am just bored and want things to be more interesting while we slowly are crushed flat and then left as roadkill.

I know you've heard of The Village People, right? Thats actually a ways back for me. As for pro wrestling, tune into the new American Gladiator show any you'll get an idea of what it was like. Its the funniest show on TV. Don't watch the current wrestling crap though. Old school or no school.

And you're wrong about us being roadkill. Even if you're right about us being roadkill, you're wrong ;)

I know you've heard of The Village People, right? Thats actually a ways back for me. As for pro wrestling, tune into the new American Gladiator show any you'll get an idea of what it was like. Its the funniest show on TV. Don't watch the current wrestling crap though. Old school or no school.

And you're wrong about us being roadkill. Even if you're right about us being roadkill, you're wrong ;)

I am pretty out of it. I gave up on pop culture before the Beatles white album came out. "Big Joe's Polka Hour" on RFDTV is my idea of good entertainment.

I know you've heard of The Village People, right? Thats actually a ways back for me. As for pro wrestling, tune into the new American Gladiator show any you'll get an idea of what it was like. Its the funniest show on TV. Don't watch the current wrestling crap though. Old school or no school.

And you're wrong about us being roadkill. Even if you're right about us being roadkill, you're wrong ;)

I am pretty out of it. I gave up on pop culture before the Beatles white album came out. "Big Joe's Polka Hour" on RFDTV is my idea of good entertainment.

If it makes you feel any better, the monolithicness of pop culture is fast disappearing. Look at how desperately entertainment people are clinging to the likes of Britney Spears. Everything is splintered now. The time of the Rock Star is over.

Mike, do this for me. Put your fingers into the shape of an L and hold it over your forehead. Thats the indoctinration into the "Losers" club..Brother. As a member in long-standing I'll teach you our ways :)

Well ok kid but have you ever actually seen Big Joe's Polka Hour? Or do you just talk out of your hat? (The hat with the big "L" on the front.)

Well ok kid but have you ever actually seen Big Joe's Polka Hour? Or do you just talk out of your hat? (The hat with the big "L" on the front.)

I'll never tell :D



Nah, I just meant we could share in ostracism that comes from not watching TV, going to movies, listening to the radio/Top 40 stuff, reading magazines, etc.

My knowledge of pop culture is pretty much frozen in time in the early 90s which is when my interest drifted elsewhere. Even then I was never "cool" lol

Funny about the hat though..I need one :)

Dear Optimist,

So, how do we get from here to there? The people are dissatisfied, so new? How does this translate to major social change? The vast majority still have their comforts, plentiful, if crummy, food, TV, sports, how ya gonna compete with that? And what about all of those "wedge", social issues that have been used so well to disguise, distract and misdirect so effectively?

As for people's faith in government, what advantage is that? They do not see the government as the embodiment of the people's will but some monolithic presence, god, daddy or something. It is outside of them, how does this translate into anticapitalist action?

What, the working class intellectuals must step up to agitate and educate? :roll: Show me how this is done, I see nothing but Scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion.

Are the people really ready? Are we?

Sincerely,

Devil's Advocate

You assign me a virtually impossible task, which I think is your way of expressing your opinion that anything anyone could suggest would be impossible. I will respond point by point.

"How do we get from here to there?"

There is no quick answer to this, although I am thinking that I will put in the time required to develop the long answer. The is no overcoming the resistance represented by the idea that if we don't know the whole answer, we can't discuss any part of the answer, that if we can't see the entire process, then we refuse to see any first steps. Isn't this a variation on the old "oh yeah, you sure have a lot of criticism, but if you're so smart what's your plan?" thinking that is used to dismiss all social critics? You are saying that we can't get from here to there - the is revealed in your subsequent comments - but rather than saying that forthrightly you challenge me to show you how we get from here to there. The implication being that I cannot.

"The people are dissatisfied, so new?"

If public dissatisfaction means nothing, then are we to imagine that satisfaction with the status quo is preferable?

"How does this translate to major social change?"

Again, I think you are saying that it cannot. Perhaps if I could come up with some perfect answer you would then seriously consider the question.

"The vast majority still have their comforts..."

I thought you agreed that the people were dissatisfied?

"How ya gonna compete with that?"

Again, the covert message. You are saying that I cannot compete with that, anmd putting it in the form of a challenge rather than saying it. Why would one want to "compete with that?" Why must we assume that this is the task?

"And what about all of those "wedge", social issues...."

Again, you are saying that these cannot be overcome and challenge me to prove to you that they can or accept your view that they cannot as the assumption we must make. I would say that if you think that wedge issues are some enormous barrier to overcome, that you haven't analyzed the subject very thoroughly. They wouldn't be wedge issues if they had much substance or durability. Their power lies in thinking they have substance, and you ask us to accept that as a prerequisite to discussing the subject.

"As for people's faith in government, what advantage is that?"

It contradicts the current ruling class propaganda. Again, what are you saying? That it would be preferable if everyone embraced the libertarian "government is evil" propaganda?

"...monolithic presence, god, daddy or something."

Funny, I just caught a little bit of Limbaugh on the car radio, and he was talking about what people look to government for and used almost the same words that you are using here.

"It is outside of them, how does this translate into anticapitalist action?"

If people are looking outside of the "free market" libertarian paradigm, that is a basis for ant-capitalism. But again you challenge me rather than stating your opinion that it cannot translate into anticapitalist action, and demanding that I prove to you that it can before you will consider the question. Unless I make the perfect argument - and probably not even then - we default to your assumption.

"What, the working class intellectuals must step up to agitate and educate?"

You mock this idea? Heard it all before, have you? Not buying it?

"Show me how this is done, I see nothing but Scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion."

Do you mean that is all you see from me? Or from whom? Up until this statement you were arguing that nothing can be done. Now you are complaining that nothing is being done. This is the core ruling class argument, BP. By that I mean the precise pattern of thinking that apologizes for and defends the interests of the ruling class and that renders any who could be agitators not only impotent and useless, but places them squarely in the service of the ruling class. You lament the circular arguments, but can you not see the circle you just ran?

No one would overtly argue in favor of poverty, for example. But what a person can do is to argue that anyone talking about poverty "has no plan" so therefore can be dismissed; that "nothing is being done" by anyone and they are all engaged in "scholastic angel counting, circular arguments and comfortable delusion" so therefore nothing [i]can[/i[] be done; and that the people are happy being poor, so they are useless and that represents a barrier that cannot be overcome.

The person using those arguments would be much more honest if they said "I favor poverty." The reason that they don't is twofold. First, they would need to recognize unpleasant things about themselves - their inhumanity and their cowardice and their lack of imagination. Secondly, it would not be effective at maintaining poverty, since it would expose the lies that are essential for poverty to persist. So we are rewarded in various ways for couching our support for poverty in the types of arguments that you used to refute what I said.

"Are the people really ready?"

Ready for what? I am refuting the pervasive notion that "the people are not ready," so therefore nothing can be done. What is it that the people who say this are imagining? What would you have the people be ready for? I think this is an excuse to do nothing, even to the point of refusing to consider my point. I may be wrong about where the general public is and what can be done with that, but I can't help noticing that there is massive resistance to even discussing it.

Again, I am going to say that you are making a ruling class argument here. The core of this argument is that "things are the way they are, whaddya gonna do, they never change" (insert shoulder shrug.) But things are changing. The wealthy and powerful are not standing still, they are aggressively and relentlessly moving against the people. No one would say "I favor the ongoing destruction of the people and the earth's resources by the few" and the dynamic is exactly the same as the one in my poverty example above.

Why are the people presumed to be ready to be raped, but not ready to resist? I think this is a clever way to say that the people are not being raped, or at least not enough for us to be alarmed about or do anything about. What a cop out.

"Are we?"

Are we what? Are we ready to examine the contradictions in our own minds that I described above, are we ready to see that we are already putting a tremendous amount of energy into serving the ruling class, and that this is the problem we need to tackle? Are we ready to stop seeing ourselves as neutral or benign or detached from the game? Are we ready to stop with the self-serving and lazy and illogical assertions that of "don't get me wrong I am all in favor of socialism, but...?"

Are we ready to see that we are cleverly lying to ourselves and to each other about this?

That is an open question.

Hey, I'm working for the powers of Darkness, ya know? Of course I'm making ruling class arguments! If I'm channelling Rush, perfect!

But back to bizness. Just for the sake of argument let's pretend that I'm wrong and you're right. :twisted: So, the people are ready, well, maybe not torches & pitchforks ready, but ready to listen. The scribblers have somehow consolidated their feces. Whadda ya tell them, "Capitalism sucks!"?

If we agreed to start tomorrow, what do you think would be the first "thing to do"?

BP, there's only one thing to ever do. You have to fight the fight in front of you. Thats always been what Communists do. Where combat breaks out, thats where we have to be. Thats not just good practical advice, its a rule of the universe.

Now some of the more visible conflagrations have ebbed (unions, mass demonstrations that mean anything, strikes, etc) but listen to Mike. Listen to Chlams. The agricultural sector of the proletariat is in grave trouble. So are minorities in general, so are the poor in general. Even those that are ostensibly "making it" are under assault themselves, though perhaps more subtle.


What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up Like a raisin in the sun?... Or does it explode?
Langston Hughes

Our words are firebombs, BP.

BP, there's only one thing to ever do. You have to fight the fight in front of you. Thats always been what Communists do. Where combat breaks out, thats where we have to be. Thats not just good practical advice, its a rule of the universe.

Now some of the more visible conflagrations have ebbed (unions, mass demonstrations that mean anything, strikes, etc) but listen to Mike. Listen to Chlams. The agricultural sector of the proletariat is in grave trouble. So are minorities in general, so are the poor in general. Even those that are ostensibly "making it" are under assault themselves, though perhaps more subtle.


What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up Like a raisin in the sun?... Or does it explode?
Langston Hughes

Our words are firebombs, BP.

Um, it seems that Devil's Advocate bullshit didn't work so well. As you suggested up thread, that was not me talking. The whole point of theat was to provide a dummy for Mike to beat on, and develop his thesis. Oh well.

Um, it seems that Devil's Advocate bullshit didn't work so well. As you suggested up thread, that was not me talking. The whole point of theat was to provide a dummy for Mike to beat on, and develop his thesis. Oh well.

No, I got it. I know it "wasn't you" talking.

BP, there's only one thing to ever do. You have to fight the fight in front of you. Thats always been what Communists do. Where combat breaks out, thats where we have to be. Thats not just good practical advice, its a rule of the universe.

Now some of the more visible conflagrations have ebbed (unions, mass demonstrations that mean anything, strikes, etc) but listen to Mike. Listen to Chlams. The agricultural sector of the proletariat is in grave trouble. So are minorities in general, so are the poor in general. Even those that are ostensibly "making it" are under assault themselves, though perhaps more subtle.


What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up Like a raisin in the sun?... Or does it explode?
Langston Hughes

Our words are firebombs, BP.

Um, it seems that Devil's Advocate bullshit didn't work so well. As you suggested up thread, that was not me talking. The whole point of theat was to provide a dummy for Mike to beat on, and develop his thesis. Oh well.

My bad. I should've quoted what I was responding to. It was this:


But back to bizness. Just for the sake of argument let's pretend that I'm wrong and you're right. So, the people are ready, well, maybe not torches & pitchforks ready, but ready to listen. The scribblers have somehow consolidated their feces. Whadda ya tell them, "Capitalism sucks!"?

If we agreed to start tomorrow, what do you think would be the first "thing to do"?

Well ok kid but have you ever actually seen Big Joe's Polka Hour? Or do you just talk out of your hat? (The hat with the big "L" on the front.)

I'll never tell :D



Nah, I just meant we could share in ostracism that comes from not watching TV, going to movies, listening to the radio/Top 40 stuff, reading magazines, etc.

My knowledge of pop culture is pretty much frozen in time in the early 90s which is when my interest drifted elsewhere. Even then I was never "cool" lol

Funny about the hat though..I need one :)


Klassik kitch TV,since 1965:

ttp://www.rfdtv.com/PDF/bigjoe/RFD36LOW.pdf.


Joseph Siedlik is better known as “Big Joe,” or “Polka Joe,” in Omaha,Nebraska, and surrounding areas.Big Joe’sinterest in polka music of all
kinds really stems from his Polish roots and from growing up in the ethnic neighborhoods of South Omaha.While “Big Joe” has always had an interest in Polka music,his professional interest began in Columbus, Nebraska,on radio station KTTT in 1965 with his inaugural 90 minute
polka show: The Big Joe Polka Show hit the air and was an immediate hit.Within five weeks,he was airing five hours each Sunday, with a full
load of sponsors. So popular was his program,radio stations in neighboring markets fought to get the Big Joe Polka Show on their air.Radio
stations in Ord,Nebraska, and Omaha-CouncilBluffs, Iowa were soon added to the line-up.Big Joe has always played an equal mix of
Polish, Czech and German Polkas – a little something for everyone.When his show aired in Omaha, the demand for diversity increased.Offut Air Force Base, home to 45,000 polka lovers from all over the United States,produced requests for the music of many New York and New Jersey area polka bands with stars like Frank Wojnaroski,and the Connecticut twins,Stash and Jash Big Band.Polish Cleveland wanted Lou Trebar, Johnny Pecon and the Frankie Yankovic style of polka music,Minnesota wanted a more conservative sound with Erwin Suess. South Dakota wanted Johnny Matusek and the Tabor Czech Brass Band,and on,and on it went.With a wider variety of polka music,the Big Joe Polka Show grew in popularity,and length,going from five hours to nine hours each week.

The Big Joe Polka Show was always number one in its time period in the Omaha Market as well as in Columbus and Ord,Nebraska.

After 25 years, and only 12 Sundays off in that time,Big Joe retired from live radio and the rigors of 18 hours of weekly shows.With the advent of RFD-TV,Big Joe moved to television and a new audience in rural America.A perennial viewer favorite,the Big Joe Polka Show can be seen 12 times each week on RFD-TV.

Over the years, “Big Joe” has become the largest owner of polka music master tapes in the United States with over 550 masters in his collection.Joe and his wife Marty own and operate Polka Cassettes of Nebraska.They feature over 700 cassettes,300 cds and 100 videos in their warehouse.In addition,Marty and Joe have contact with over 200 polka bands across the United States and Canada wanting to be on the Big Joe Polka Show.


For a free catalogue write to:
Polka Cassettes of Nebraska
P.O. Box 3643 Omaha, NE 68103.
Or call toll free 1-800-257-6552
bigjoepolkashow@aol.com
www.polkacatalog.com (http://www.polkacatalog.com)


http://www.freewebs.com/atomicbeaver2/BigJoeBG.jpg http://www.jimmykpolkas.com/nv00377.jpg

Klassik kitch TV,since 1965:

ttp://www.rfdtv.com/PDF/bigjoe/RFD36LOW.pdf.


Joseph Siedlik is better known as “Big Joe,” or “Polka Joe,” in Omaha,Nebraska, and surrounding areas.Big Joe’sinterest in polka music of all
kinds really stems from his Polish roots and from growing up in the ethnic neighborhoods of South Omaha.While “Big Joe” has always had an interest in Polka music,his professional interest began in Columbus, Nebraska,on radio station KTTT in 1965 with his inaugural 90 minute
polka show: The Big Joe Polka Show hit the air and was an immediate hit.Within five weeks,he was airing five hours each Sunday, with a full
load of sponsors. So popular was his program,radio stations in neighboring markets fought to get the Big Joe Polka Show on their air.Radio
stations in Ord,Nebraska, and Omaha-CouncilBluffs, Iowa were soon added to the line-up.Big Joe has always played an equal mix of
Polish, Czech and German Polkas – a little something for everyone.When his show aired in Omaha, the demand for diversity increased.Offut Air Force Base, home to 45,000 polka lovers from all over the United States,produced requests for the music of many New York and New Jersey area polka bands with stars like Frank Wojnaroski,and the Connecticut twins,Stash and Jash Big Band.Polish Cleveland wanted Lou Trebar, Johnny Pecon and the Frankie Yankovic style of polka music,Minnesota wanted a more conservative sound with Erwin Suess. South Dakota wanted Johnny Matusek and the Tabor Czech Brass Band,and on,and on it went.With a wider variety of polka music,the Big Joe Polka Show grew in popularity,and length,going from five hours to nine hours each week.

The Big Joe Polka Show was always number one in its time period in the Omaha Market as well as in Columbus and Ord,Nebraska.

After 25 years, and only 12 Sundays off in that time,Big Joe retired from live radio and the rigors of 18 hours of weekly shows.With the advent of RFD-TV,Big Joe moved to television and a new audience in rural America.A perennial viewer favorite,the Big Joe Polka Show can be seen 12 times each week on RFD-TV.

Over the years, “Big Joe” has become the largest owner of polka music master tapes in the United States with over 550 masters in his collection.Joe and his wife Marty own and operate Polka Cassettes of Nebraska.They feature over 700 cassettes,300 cds and 100 videos in their warehouse.In addition,Marty and Joe have contact with over 200 polka bands across the United States and Canada wanting to be on the Big Joe Polka Show.


For a free catalogue write to:
Polka Cassettes of Nebraska
P.O. Box 3643 Omaha, NE 68103.
Or call toll free 1-800-257-6552
bigjoepolkashow@aol.com
www.polkacatalog.com (http://www.polkacatalog.com)


http://www.freewebs.com/atomicbeaver2/BigJoeBG.jpg http://www.jimmykpolkas.com/nv00377.jpg

So great.

How can people claim to be advocates for the proletariat and not be down with the people's music?

God do I miss Hamtramck.

Couldn't have survived Saturday morning without The Polka Hour, what a hangover cure. Ompha band down the street at the Eichenkrantz restaurant. Couldn't get away from it back home, back then.

Not around here, though.

http://www.primetimepolkas.com/1381c8c80.jpg