We said that there was no where else to go and that there was a need for this place.

We said that the development of an alternative narrative was important.

We said that we were going to run this place democratically.

We said that we were going to discuss the discussion - how people get run off, how it gets steered and hijacked, how it gets infiltrated, what the dead ends were, how to broaden and increase participation...

OK it went wrong. People got upset, and quicker than anywhere else and without warning, the same pattern happened here that has happened elsewhere.

Let's say for the moment that it is true that Newswolf did the unforgiveable - he uttered a phrase that could be construed to be in alignment with a right wing propaganda concept. And the rest of us never express things that are in alignment with right wing propaganda concepts? Hah. Maybe we are just more careful about the language we use. In fact, maybe we all walk on eggshells all the time. I know that I thought long and hard and hesitated before I posted this. How come I do that? I don't believe that I am the only one who does that - carefully words their posts, and has second thoughts about posting some things because we know of the potential for uproar if we make one little mistake.

I have no confidence that this post will be taken in the spirit intended, that it won't upset or offend someone, that it won't be seen as an accusation or as part of a hidden agenda.

Maybe that is part of the problem? Or is there no problem and is everything just ducky? Or are these boards just for amusement anyway? Or does nothing we say here matter anyway?

So maybe Newswolf did the unforgiveable, but look at the work here, work that just isn't happening in very many places -

THE U.S. DOMESTIC CRISIS INTENSIFIES: THE ADVERSARIES BARE THEIR FANGS (http://wolfgangvonskeptik.mu.nu/)

I've seen wolf post a few times since then and I don't think he caught any further shit so I figured the whole thing had just blown over.

And I agree, he's been churning out some good stuff over at wolfgangskeptik

I've seen wolf post a few times since then and I don't think he caught any further shit so I figured the whole thing had just blown over.

And I agree, he's been churning out some good stuff over at wolfgangskeptik
Whatever we were doing came to a screeching halt. Since then it has sort of limped along.

I don't have an axe to grind. When we started, there was consensus that we were going to do things differently here, there was much energy and enthusiasm and optimism. We failed quite spectacularly at that, and the energy, enthusiasm and optimism has not returned. People have fallen back to the default position - "it is hopeless."

This may not matter to some. That is fine. I happen to know that it is of intense interest and significant importance to several, myself included, and I also have believed for a long time that it is also of intense interest and significant importance to millions of people. The general public is caught in the same trap that we are.

If course I am operating on a number of assumptions, all of which get challenged in the modern political discussion - that reality exists; that we exist; that we live within a community, and that the community exists; that politics is about the agreement under which we live in a community; that politics exists; that politics starts with, and always is mainly a discussion; that ideas are powerful; that discussion generate ideas; that we are now severely constrained within a very narrow range of ideas, yet ironically fancy ourselves to be looking at all possible ideas; that politics matters; that people are real and they matter; that history is not over and we are part of it; that we matter and that we can be actors and causative agents in the drama; that intellectuals have a unique and critical role to play in politics; that politics is not a niche hobby interest, but rather encompasses all things involved in living in a community of fellow human beings and so is of importance and relevance to all; that we cannot clearly see the context within which we labor; that we have not even begun to scratch the surface of discussing the political situation we are in, let alone possible remedies, let alone what our role might be in all of that; that we are not now players in the game of life and politics, but rather are mostly observers.

Where to now? Each splintering from a larger group has resulted in ever smaller groups. Each quest for freedom has brought the opposite. First the liberals differentiate themselves from the right wing, and then the liberals split into DLC and Green and Koochie and Deaniac factions and what not, and then groups like DU arise to be the "underground" of the liberal movement - presumably "better" in some way, with implied greater freedom and effectiveness (same thing happens offline by the way) - then DU spins off a "more free" and "more radical" PI, which then splits off to PopIndy, etc.

The only parallel that comes to mind is the history of the Puritans, and the mythology about their history. The myth is that they came to escape persecution. The truth is that they wanted more freedom to persecute, more freedom to form a tight and homogeneous community of "like minded" folk where never is heard a discouraging word - or else. In every single splinter of liberalism the drive is for purity of doctrine, and the result is fragmentation and alienation and isolation.

Each split seems to lead us to a more restrictive and rigidly enforced doctrine.

My goal was neither to have a big tent where anything goes, nor to withdraw into a tighter and tighter insular and esoteric ideological circle until finally no two people trust each other or can agree on anything. Those two alternatives represent what we already have, and are effortless - and useless. Nothing to talk about then except our frustration and misery and no purpose for the discussion except to identify enemies and bash the shit out of them.

How to take a narrow set of principles and ideals, and make them universally accessible and put them to practical use?

The people in the small tent should lead the people in the big tent, they shouldn't try to become the big tent - converting people to be just like us and throwing out anyone who isn't - nor to settle for being a small tent - pure in principle but impotent in reality - nor join the big tent - giving up principle in the hope of gaining effectiveness.

Mike have you considered the fact that maybe alot of the people involved are predisposed to hysterics and wild overdramatizing so you have to not take this so seriously. Obviously egos got bruised and peopel DID take take it way too seriouslybut from a personal standpoint I don't think it something to dwell on so much.

My reasoning is that if something that like is going to deflate us, it was only the first hurdle of a hundred more just like it or worse. So..yeah.

Besides which, if the primary posters of this site were going to be as doctrinaire as they were during that incident all the time then that was really a problem all along, wasn't it.

I don't want to belittle the amount of time you've spent mulling this over, or even disagree how important the lesson from it is, but i think a good step right now might be to distance ourselves from the whole thing with time.

It's not like we're the most mature group in the world, so we do have some stuff we can work on improving.

Other than that, I dunno.

...as I recall you lectured me for using "Jew" inappropriately. Interesting that you defend free license to attack Muslums but insist we be politically correct when it comes to Judiasm/Zionism.
Can you really not see the difference?

"Judaism is this that or the other...." compared to "Jews are this that or the other."

"Islam is this that or the other..." compared to "Moslems are this that or the other."

It isn't the best comparison, because "Jew" is an ethnicity as much or more than it is religion.

Now, had Newswolf said "Arabs are this that or the other..." that would be different and I would have challenged him on that as well.

I don't agree that this is about "political correctness" Raph. Are we so confused from the right wing propaganda about pc and reverse racism and such that we can't think straight on the issue?

Here is what is objectionable, both from a moral standpoint and from a logic standpoint - that which ascribes qualities to an individual based on ethnicity, or ascribes qualities to all people of a certain ethnicity based on the behavior of one or some of the people of that ethnicity.

"Islam" is not an ethnicity, it is an institution. It doesn't meet the criteria of smearing people that it would if we said "Moslems."

"Islam is a threat" is not the same as saying "Moslems are a threat." It just isn't. "Catholicism is a threat" is not the same as "Catholics are a threat."

I think I have an occasionally good practical intelligence. Nothing fancy. I am interested in ideas and truth, but I am not an intellectual so sometimes I have nothing to say. Is there room here for me too without y'all feeling that I cramp your style and dumb down the discussion?

I think I have an occasionally good practical intelligence. Nothing fancy. I am interested in ideas and truth, but I am not an intellectual so sometimes I have nothing to say. Is there room here for me too without y'all feeling that I cramp your style and dumb down the discussion?

Welcome to the club. Doubt that I've been mistaken for an "intellectual". Like yourself, I sometimes refrain from commenting when I'm out of my depth, sometimes I weigh in and make a hash of things. That's how we learn, eh?

The learning is well and good, but I'd like to apply it. I want to start distribuiting those leaflets, or whatever the hell we're going to do. I don't have a clue of how to get the ball rolling.

Just casting about for ideas I googled "egalitarian statement of principles" and came up with this stuff:

http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index ... 2&Itemid=1 (http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=1)

http://www.howardri.org/NLSDParty.html

Please understand that I am talking about form, not content. There's good and not so good content in both of these but a lack of class analysis. What I'm thinking about is should we attempt to produce a statement similar to these? Would that be useful? I dunno, just trying to DO something.

Just casting about for ideas I googled "egalitarian statement of principles" and came up with this stuff:

http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index ... 2&Itemid=1 (http://eustonmanifesto.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=1)

http://www.howardri.org/NLSDParty.html

Please understand that I am talking about form, not content. There's good and not so good content in both of these but a lack of class analysis. What I'm thinking about is should we attempt to produce a statement similar to these? Would that be useful? I dunno, just trying to DO something.

Wow, don't post that stuff on PI. Even with the disclaimers (lack of class analysis blah blah) you will get your head bitten off, trust me.

Where's my post?

WTF????

Lol...

I thinking you are picking nits because we have been socially conditioned to trend that narrow line---being whipped back and denounced at any infraction determined to be critical of Israel as anti-semitism---EVEN when that "criticism" is nothing more than the plain and simple truth.

Fundamentally Zionism IS racism--Israel is a Jewish state. Period.
I read where DBCooper mentioned that Zionism is Jewish nationalism--allegiance to the homeland--indoctrinated from day one---and I am critical of American Jews, in particular--in the same manner that I might comment on American notions of patriotism as being militaristic, for not making a moral stand---ESPECIALLY considering their own history.

So, btw, did you censor my post?

So, btw, did you censor my post?
No, he tried to reply to it and edited it instead. He offered a groveling apology elsewhere, after I tipped him off to what he'd obliviously done.

So, btw, did you censor my post?
No. What I did was accidentally hit the "edit" button rather than the "quote" button. Sorry. :oops: