for the things you believe in, then to not fight at all?

A month ago, I was ready to walk away from PI. It wasn't that big a deal, it wasn't the first time I've walked away from a political forum that I had spent a lot time and energy at. The first time was when I walked away from a local forum that I had posted on for over 2 years and went to DU. 4 years later, I walked away again when DU would not allow open discussions about I/P and 9/11 issues. I never asked to be reinstated, I never created a new sock so I could continue to post, I just walked away and came here to PI.

When the PI changed in June and old members came back, I didn't understand the big deal. I had not been here the first go round, so I didn't have any emotions or baggage for or against either side. In other words, I came into this situation with an open mind.

Since then a lot has happened. Old members left or were banned. Emotions ran high on both sides. During that time, Tin asked me if I would be an admin again. Why, who knows? I didn't have desire to be an admin, since I had been one before, but from that experience, I knew that any decision or action that I took as an admin would often be reversed or undermined. When the owner of a site, does not give their admins their support and trust, especially in public then having those powers just aren't worth the grief. The only reason I agreed this time around was because she asked me to, and because of the love and friendship that I feel for Tin has a person and a human that I care a lot about, I reluctantly agreed. And then, I didn't do anything. I sat back and watched what was going on here.

By August, Tin was no where to be found and TA was the one in charge. It became apparent that there were two separate camps of people who were in opposition. Some of the stuff between the two groups goes back to the early years on DU. And since, I do not have the wisdom of Solomon, sorting out who's bad and who's good is impossible at this point. The end result was that in just a month or two, only a handful of people were left and the board was virtually a dead zone, with maybe one or two threads a day going and only a handful of posts on those. I also noticed, that if anyone who wasn't from the current 'in crowd' posted, they would be attacked, harassed and a there would be a concerted effort to drive them off the board. If anyone complained to TA, they would be told it was all in their heads, no one was attacking anyone or he didn't know what they were talking about. In order to be a good admin on a political forum, a person needs to try to be fair to all members, not just the ones they agree with. During that time, I did attempt to contact TA to discuss PI and see how we could work together. Unfortunately, my attempts were not reciprocated and at that point I decided that PI was no longer the place that I had come to call home and it was time to move on. But that was the easy way out and what would that accomplish? Instead, I stuck around and decided to figure out who was who and what was behind the things that were happening here. What I started to discover was not pretty, as a matter of fact some it was rather ugly.

So, I changed my mind. I decided that before I walked away from this place, I would stay and fight for what I had believed in and had put so much of myself into for the last 3 years. That is why I planned the action that I took this weekend. Did I know it would piss people off. Yes, that was inevitable. Was what I did radical and outrageous? I suppose, but isn't that what the socialists around here have been calling for? For people to take radical action, no matter who you piss off? No one ever likes their own medicine. Would I piss off Tin so bad that she would banish me? That was the chance I was willing to take. Was it really worth it? I do hope so. What was there to lose? PI was already dead and gone and if that means I have to lose everything that I've worked for here, well at least I can hold my head high because I tried and did my best to fight for what I believed in. I have no regrets or remorse for the actions that I have taken. If I lose the friends that I have made here because of that I've done, then maybe they really weren't my friends to begin with. I just hope I've done some good in the cosmic scheme of things.

In peace and with love for everyone at PI.

Annie - DYEW

You just staged a fucking coup and got busted. You took control of the whole goddamn board. And you know perfectly well that me or TA could have banned everyone and taken over the place for the last few months but we didn't.

Fuck you.

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=153&topic_id=882

That's where your story falls apart DYEW.

You call that a fight? Turning off everyone else's admin access with no warning, no discussion, nothing?

That's your idea of a fucking fight?

Make no mistake, Annie, what you did was blatant and authoritarian and everyone can see it. If they find it acceptable, well, that says a lot about them.

You 'un-banned' a bunch of people following a conversation with TA, and then you turned off his and my admin access because you 'thought it was best'. Holy-fucking-shit.

You are so full of shit.

People here know that while I can be feisty bitch from time-to-time I seldom flip out like I am doing now.

I'm gonna keep calling you out and calling you out and guess what? You can't fucking ban me anymore.

But don't worry, slad et al, I am doing it with measured breath from a place of inner peace.

You fucking wish.

It was a dirty, ugly, manipulative power grab.

Fuck you.

(this is kinda fun. Am I gonna set off some kind of spam filter?LOL)

Saying TA was 'in charge' - you KNOW how full of shit that is. TA, more than anyone, has railed against small groups of mods/admins controlling boards for years. He NEVER wanted to be 'in charge'. The reason Tin gave TA power is because she could TRUST HIM NOT TO DO THE KIND OF DUMB, ARROGANT, AND DANGEROUS** SHIT YOU JUST PULLED.

**DANGEROUS - yes, because there is years worth of writing and links and discussion here and someone who would do the dumb shit you just did is probably petty and childish and stupid enough to delete posts and make shit disappear. Which is why it was VITAL that people like TA and I had access along with you and whomever else.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

that's why I posted this in the debate forum.

Feel free to continue. I really don't mind.

carry on.

:flush:

You stole the punchline :)

purging the nightmare...

I need to get back to arguing with the damned landlord anyway. Story of my life.

Ya know, the nice kind of capitalist. The kind who has your best interests in mind. It's your own fault for living where you do. ;)

Shit, I gotta get some work done.

I probably shouldn't hold my breath on that.

DYEW, a question -

Yes there was conflict here, and yes apparently several people were banned or left. But when you took these actions you describe to "fight for what I had believed in," why did you bring back a couple of trolls and posers to support your effort?

Of all the members worth having back here, why the freakshow?

I mean, what were you fighting for?

"freakshow" indeed...

was because Two Americas and Chlamor claim they are against banning anyone. Since TA is still an admin, he could unban them himself and at least allow people to battle it out between themselves and get it over with. Many of you claim we can not defend our ideas and that is why we run away. Doesn't it make it a bit difficult to defend your ideas, when you come home and all the doors are locked? OPEN UP THE FORUM! LET US SPEAK!

okay
But I think we're talking about two different things

(I'm also against banning - save for obvious trolls and disruptors, and then only after you've kicked the shit out of them long enough for others to observe and learn for themselves the danger in allowing authoritarian ruling class apologists to derail and shut down discussion.)

And you did this only after you had made yourself sole admin, without any consultation? Surely you can do better than that.

That's what liberals are for, to take the most reactionary bullshit and spin it into a lie.

You removed the Admin rights of the two other Admins here and yet wrote with a straight face "When the owner of a site, does not give their admins their support and trust"

Trust?

I can barely believe what I read so far. I left you as an Admin along with Two Americas and MeganMonkey because I trusted all three of you. You betrayed that trust.

Instead, I stuck around and decided to figure out who was who and what was behind the things that were happening here. What I started to discover was not pretty, as a matter of fact some it was rather ugly.

Go ahead. Spell it out. You left your conspiracy theory in my voicemail but spell out for everyone who's a Zionist, who's a rightwinger instead of that false assertion. Every single dot you could stretch-connect, even by two people just being friendly with each other on another forum, you did.

This is an unbelievable disappointment. I trusted you. Trusted you to provide some balance so that the board would have a non-leftist Admin. Instead you staged a coup, cut off Two America's rights and preemptively cut off Megan's rights so she couldn't undo the damage. How is that love?

Then you reinstated people I had banned for disciplinary reasons and for being total assholes. None of those people are going to be unbanned as if nothing happened because they weren't banned lightly.

What on earth were you thinking? This is just terrible. I can't even imagine myself doing any of the things you did.

My tolerance for bullshit and stupidity is now 0.

I've restored Admin rights to Two Americas and Megan. Futhermore, I have given Admin rights to Blindpig, TBF, Chlamor, Kid of the Black Hole, Anaxarchos. Some of those people I have known for almost 10 years; the rest I trust implicitly despite past arguments over how much tolerance for bullshit I was allowing here.

A few people here tried to inject some sense explaining how the economics of it work and others don't want to hear anything about those silly -isms, started clutching their car keys as if Commies were coming for their personal property and then staged a coup.

A few people pointed out how the fixation with the Israeli Organ Donor scandal stinks of antiSemitism and people took offense instead of sitting back and asking themselves, why, with all the coountries doing this, why is Israel being singled out? Why am I contributing to the 21st century blood libel of Jews drink the blood of Christian children? If that story isn't discussed in the correct context that Israel is just one rich nation among many that does that, it's a blood libel. And it makes it increasingly difficult for some of us, (ME for example) to even contribute any pro-Palestinian stories.

I'm not so nice these days and have no more tolerance for [link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism#Liberal_philosophy|liberalism]. Instead of half the board getting offended when people throw out the word liberal, how about looking it up? Liberalism is all about MARKETS. PROFIT. EXPLOITATION. It's not a personal attack. People are starving all over the world while we rape and loot, living high off the hog of their misery. People on this board need to decide which side they're on. If they're not on the side of the poor, or intelligent/honest enough to face some painful truths without getting all hysterical, then screw them.

I'm still angry and hurt and I better shut up now.

I could of done a lot more then turn off the admin rights on two people, who were no longer acting in good faith. All of you know where I am and how to get in touch with me. I have extended my hand many times.

Nothing that I did, could not be easily undone by you. Since, I could not get in touch with you, to find out what YOU wanted to do about YOUR forum and TA was unwilling to even talk to me, what other choice did I have? Walk away or do something to get your attention? Sorry the bucket of cold water was a shock. Like I said, if I had really wanted to do some damage the door was wide open. Yes, you trusted me. Too bad you can't see that you still can.

Just a tech note: The only other thing I changed was the forwarding email address for new accounts.

Edit: You know I didn't want the ring of power back. ;) :hug:

never occurred to me when I was at Old Elm. If I didn't like something I talked to the other folks, when I finally did decide to leave it was quietly out the back door so as to respect the other management there. And Two Americas did exactly the same thing. You don't blow up the place to get attention, at least not in this context. As my little sister would say "epic fail".

since I thought your side was all for direct action and doing outrageous things. I thought Chlamor would be proud of such an action.

Like I said, I didn't do anything that wasn't easily undone. Since I had tried to talk to Tin and TA and Megan hadn't been around for over 2 months, I did what I did. Am I suppose to feel bad or apologize for being a bad girl? Should I be punished or as BP would prefer, maybe hung?

We see that every day, every where. How is that courageous in any way? You remind me of those bankers who took our 401ks hostage. Now, those are folks who should be hung. I really don't care what happens to you.

and how do I get on it? I'd much rather be hanging out at the Hedonist, drinking a rum and coke, then hanging around here getting beat up today.

What, you don't like Laurel & Hardy? Or just hyper-literal when it suits ya?

I was always willing to talk to you. You did not try to contact me.

Please don't blame me for what you did.

Please support your charge against me that I was "not acting in good faith."

You were not trying to get Tinoire's attention, you were trying to force her hand. That is how the whole thing smells to me.

and gave you my phone number. Then you weren't feeling well and you said you were on the road. So I asked you to give me your number, if that would be easier for you. Didn't hear much from you again, until you started posting your rants on my N.J. Corruption Sweep thread in LBN.

That was July 18th. How is that connected to events over 2 months later? I was homeless and unemployed at the time, and didn't have access to a phone.

The problem with the organ donor thread is explained by Tin and I explained it at the time as well. You were not attacked, maligned, or harmed in any way. I merely disagreed with you about something.

links to antisemitic hate sites, in order to trash the tread.

http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=41135&mesg_id=41205

That is where that sort of blood libel defamation belongs. I had no idea whether you posted in ignorance of that or not. We do not want to be inadvertently reinforcing bigoted ideas, do we? I was being charged of trying to suppress discussion with false accusations of anti-Semitism. Remember? That despite lengthy explanations by me, and others, aboiut that. No, if I disagreed with you I must be an agent of the Israeli government. Do you really think we are all that naive and gullible, or are you playing for the lurkers, your pals? Do you really think that all of us do not know the full story now? The various things you have said to each of us about the others?

I haven't posted much but I have been around and any quick search will reveal that. And you NEVER PMed me or emailed me.

Are you 10 years old? Do you have any idea how this looks? '..apologize for being a bad girl..' Give me a break.

And fuck you again. I can't say it enough times.

Fuck you.

Fuck you.

Fuck you.

who plays with sockpuppets in a Silo.

Actually I never got around to creating a sock and participating in that parody. Pretty funny, though. Maybe you missed that it is a parody?

Let's give people a link, so they can see the horrible truth that you sleuthed out and are now revealing -

http://www.socialistindependent.org/silo/board/index.php

Yes, I confess. You have tracked me down and busted me. I created that site, a mocking and parody of DU. Oh, the cruelty, the irreverence, the inhumanity, the rudeness.

would have time for such silliness.

Sort of reminded me of the silliness at Free Republic and ProSemite.

It is a parody. It is intended to remind you of Free Republic.

What is "ProSemite" and what is the point of mentioning that?

salvorhardin. He knows more about it then I do.

Do tell.

It was salvadorhardin, wasn't it? Can't remember. Haven't see him around in years.

What exactly is this insinuation about?

who put him on the top of my 'favorite people' from DU list, in that thread in the Complicity Forum.

and everything they've ever said on the Internet? This is fascinating in a very bizarre way.

I hope no one is going to throw that in my face!

:booga:

That one is going to haunt me for a long time.

We're all anti-authoritarians to a greater or lesser degree and have a distaste for the heavy hand. Yet there is a time and place for decisive action, learning the when and how of it is part of our necessary education. I consider this affair the forward of that book.

We have a few people here pouring over thousands of posts over years and years hoping to "catch" me in something damning. I can't imagine doing something like that.

I mentioned earlier that the motivation of this "group" of folks seems unhinged somehow. They have become so ugly and so mean-spirited as to defy description. Why? What on earth could be their motivation for behaving in this manner? Surely, they must feel shame for their actions and words; if not, then what the hell are they? Where does this kind of sickening bile come from? I am at a loss...

I think it is the key to building a political Left - understanding how the fake leftists are sabotaging everything, and how vicious and determined they are when you cross them and then get a glimpse behind the syrupy "peace and love and green and enlightened and progressive" facade.

We are not vulnerable to those who are overtly authoritarian, honestly libertarian and reactionary and conservative. But I think it should now be obvious to all that we have an interesting phenomenon here - a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing situation. By merely calling themselves "progressives" people demand that they then be free to make any sort of right wing argument with impunity, and then claim to be "personally attacked" or "hurt" or "offended" when that is pointed out. Honest conservatives never think they are being "personally attacked" or "hurt" or "offended" when they make the exact same statements and when someone makes the exact same rebuttals to their arguments. But self-described "progressives" think they should be able to make those right wing arguments without any fear of contradiction.

I hope we discuss this in great detail in the coming days. I think everything hinges on it.

defending their "friends" and so forth. But TA is correct, I believe, that there is also something more ominous lurking. There are certainly groups that fund people like the infamous "teabaggers", and you never know where those kind of folks are going to pop up. Unfortunately we expect this from the republican party, but as democrats many of us never looked closely enough or critically enough at the status quo guarders of our own party. It is a little scary, isn't it?

Though I swear, it descended into kindergarten. Don't want to get into theories of prolonged adolescence being a factor in our cultural insanity, really too Freudian for me, but still...

Edit: This has little to do with motivation but is more of a default behavioral pattern, they fall back upon that which they know, particularly when stressed and defensive. They are both wrong and 'sorry'(southern usage).

No doubt there are some innocents, caught up in the drama. The problem is that this gets used - the innocents are used as "human shields." During the bail out debates, people at DU were saying "yeah but what about all of the little people who work for the banks?" and "what about the little people who could lose their homes?" and "what about the little business owners who can't get loans?" and during the health care debates "but what about all of the little people who work for the insurance companies?"

These arguments are always used against the Left. "While you are demanding utopia, and while I agree that the Democrats may not be perfect, we are helping a few people at least and making things better. It may not be perfect, and it is easy to criticize and be negative, but at least we are doing something while you just rant and rave from your soap box."

People claim to be looking out for the little folk as they defend and promote the interests of the fat cats.

At one time people argued that the slaves would be worse off were they emancipated, workers would be worse off if they organized, women would be worse off if they had the vote. Those fighting for those things were accused of being dangerous, of being the enemies of the people they were fighting for, of being impractical and unrealistic, of being rigid and doctrinaire, of being angry and unstable, of sabotaging the possible for the sake of the perfect. Nothing new in any of this.