Fred Magdoff: What I would end with is just a couple of ideas -- not to give you a blueprint of another type of system but a couple of ideas of what it might be like. I would say one in which basically the economy and politics are both under social control, under democratic social control. Right now the economy is not under social control at all, it's under very much private control, and I would say a good part of our political system is also under private control even thought theoretically it's under social control. . . . So what you need is really a regulation of the economy and politics by the democratic process. Goods and services would be produced for the purpose of satisfying real human needs, not manufactured ones, and not for the purpose of profit. I think it was Richard Levins . . . who said: "Agriculture is not about producing food," agriculture is "about profit. Food is a side effect." The health care industry is not about producing health, it's about producing profits. Health is a side effect. So, what I'm saying is that we need a system where agriculture is about producing food for people, it's not about producing profits for Monsanto or any of the other companies. This really will necessitate an economic plan. If you are going to produce something for a purpose, you've got to have some system of planning.

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Yadda yadda yadda, the hushed, reasonable tone of academia, don't wanna skeer them environmentalists. Christ-on-a-crutch Fred, it's a fuckin' crisis, is baby talk what we need right now? You know the deal, you know what needs to be done and you know how it has been done but you mumble on 'we need to change the system'. And how ya gonna do that, ask nice? Speak Truth to Power? Get a handful of Sierra Club 'activists' arrested in front of the White House? Sure, that'll work.....Guys like you have got buckets more knowledge of Capital than I yet you shirk your responsibility, nothing we do tinkering around the edges is going to make anything more than marginal difference that will be overwhelmed in the blink of an eye by the workings of capital. Nothing less than overturning this organization of production will get the results required.

Can you say 'revolution' Fred? No, I didn't think so.

"Agriculture is not about producing food," agriculture is "about profit. Food is a side effect." The health care industry is not about producing health, it's about producing profits. Health is a side effect. So, what I'm saying is that we need a system where agriculture is about producing food for people, it's not about producing profits for Monsanto or any of the other companies. This really will necessitate an economic plan. If you are going to produce something for a purpose, you've got to have some system of planning.

I wonder how whether he has ever run this "revealtion" of his by Marx..I wonder whether he has bothered to entertain, let alone grasp, the distinction between use value and value. He superficially gets it right while betraying that he badly doesn't care enough to actually get it right.

I've never met a group of academics more dedicated to reformulating things we already know "in their own words". Somehow their rewrites invariably serve to obfuscate and distort the point, which makes the entire business that much curiouser.

Of course, maybe my trouble is putting too much trust in a man who begins "I believe it was Richard Levins who once said.."

I wonder how whether he has ever run this "revealtion" of his by Marx..I wonder whether he has bothered to entertain, let alone grasp, the distinction between use value and value. He superficially gets it right while betraying that he badly doesn't care enough to actually get it right.

I've never met a group of academics more dedicated to reformulating things we already know "in their own words". Somehow their rewrites invariably serve to obfuscate and distort the point, which makes the entire business that much curiouser.

Of course, maybe my trouble is putting too much trust in a man who begins "I believe it was Richard Levins who once said.."

It drives me nuts. Both he and Foster demonstrate a keen understanding of capital in respect to the environment yet all they can do is end the speech-essay-book with 'we must change the system'. That is so fucking weak, so inadequate, that I wonder why they even bother.