I am having difficulty finding things lately here.

You asked a question somewhere - something to the effect of why do we need to hand select members, if we want to be broader based than, say, PI. I hope I am remembering your question accurately.

See if this helps answer it -

There are very few people relatively speaking who are interested in politics, or at least who think they are. There are even fewer who have the time, resources, inclination, knowledge, verbal skills, etc. to speak or write about it. That is why we will never be able to build a mass movement of "people like us" as so many organizations try to do.

We all know from direct experience that this is true. Our friends don't so much disagree with us politically, but rather they can't understand why we are interested in politics - "obsessed" they might say.

Most of the people in that very small group are educated and fairly successful, or relate to those who are and identify with them. But there is a another subgroup - a very small segment of that very small segment, who are self-educated, not educated, have had hard times, spent time among the blue collar people as equals, or who relate to our identify with those who have.

I will make up some numbers to paint the picture. 10-15% of the people are well educated and successful, and of those maybe one in a hundred is interested in politics - .15%. Of those, half are interested in something other than right wing politics. That leaves .07% That is the 10,000 or so people who do 90% of the talking and writing for the Left – the DUers, the activists, the pundits and writers, etc.

Now they may swing and influence, or think that they swing and influence, half of the population, but it is important to remember how small that group is. Each of those people may be able to influence 10-20 people to do certain things, like march, so you can get 100,000 or so occasionally to march or send roses to Senator Boxer or sign a petition or send in a donation or something. But those people are not loyal to the 10,000, and are not very much like the 10,000.

There are very similar percentages on the Right.

The rest of the people don't fall into either of the two groups. It is not that they are in the middle, it is not that they have a different opinion – they live in a different reality. The Right has been much more successful than the liberals in recent times understanding and relating to the mass of people. The liberals say in essence “be like us!!” while the right wingers say “we are like you!!” The second approach will always be more effective.

The important thing to remember is that political movements are always small groups trying to reach and motivate the masses. Those people – us – need to build movements, movements cannot be built made up of people like us. That means that we are potentially as powerful as the Democrats and other liberal organizations. We are doing both - trying to pull together a select cadre of people like us AND putting that cadre to work building and leading a mass movement. We here are uniquely well suited for this task, more so than any other group of people in the country, should we only realize that we aer.

Almost all of the Leftist activist are doing pretty well and have a certain level of success. It is self-selecting, because they drive out in various ways the ”losers.” They think of themselves as “winners.” Because of that, there is a built-in conservatism, and built-in inability to relate to the mass of people.

Of that small number of Left wing activists there is a rare subset, and for some reason they are coalescing here. Self-educated, or not educated, having experienced hard times, having spent time among the blue collar people and poor people as equals, or who relate to our identify with those who have. As a result if that, we are the only ones who can communicate across the divide, and we are the only ones with an inkling of a political program that would get mass popular support.

I am having difficulty finding things lately here.

You asked a question somewhere - something to the effect of why do we need to hand select members, if we want to be broader based than, say, PI. I hope I am remembering your question accurately.

See if this helps answer it -

There are very few people relatively speaking who are interested in politics, or at least who think they are. There are even fewer who have the time, resources, inclination, knowledge, verbal skills, etc. to speak or write about it. That is why we will never be able to build a mass movement of "people like us" as so many organizations try to do...
Of that small number of Left wing activists there is a rare subset, and for some reason they are coalescing here. Self-educated, or not educated, having experienced hard times, having spent time among the blue collar people and poor people as equals, or who relate to our identify with those who have. As a result if that, we are the only ones who can communicate across the divide, and we are the only ones with an inkling of a political program that would get mass popular support.

You may be referring to a chat rather than a post. I was mentioning a kind of censorship, a parsing and doling out of some of our conversations here to the broader public but only after some of the pointier edges have been rounded off.

The question is whether Folks, recalling another recent thread here, have great hearing when their faces are 'in the dirt.' Whether they will be moved by radical talk or not? How radical? Moved which direction?

The question is whether Folks, recalling another recent thread here, have great hearing when their faces are 'in the dirt.' Whether they will be moved by radical talk or not? How radical? Moved which direction?
We don't quite have the skills or understanding yet. We have a lot of indocrination to overcome, much more than the average person.

If the screamers descend on the discussion, it is impossible to keep moving the direction we are going. Look at this thread at PFC and you can see what happens -

http://www.peopleforchange.net/modules/ ... opic=32002 (http://www.peopleforchange.net/modules/Forums/index.php?showtopic=32002)

The question is whether Folks, recalling another recent thread here, have great hearing when their faces are 'in the dirt.' Whether they will be moved by radical talk or not? How radical? Moved which direction?
We don't quite have the skills or understanding yet. We have a lot of indocrination to overcome, much more than the average person.

If the screamers descend on the discussion, it is impossible to keep moving the direction we are going. Look at this thread at PFC and you can see what happens -

http://www.peopleforchange.net/modules/ ... opic=32002 (http://www.peopleforchange.net/modules/Forums/index.php?showtopic=32002)

Between you and Wolfgang in this environ of utter freedom to say what you mean, I rather doubt the screamers stand much of a chance!

Between you and Wolfgang in this environ of utter freedom to say what you mean, I rather doubt the screamers stand much of a chance!
Down with the screamers, bring on the dreamers

Down with the screamers, bring on the dreamers
Look at that thread.

That is the best example - ths most clearcut and obvious example I have seen - of Democrats viciously attacking anyone on the Left. Once they get on a board or on a thread, they will not rest until they have trashed out a conversation - any conversation - that hits too close to home about the Democratic party and liberals.

How do we handle that when they show up?

You probably recognize the two who are being attacked there. We know them under different usernames.

Down with the screamers, bring on the dreamers
Look at that thread.

That is the best example - ths most clearcut and obvious example I have seen - of Democrats viciously attacking anyone on the Left. Once they get on a board or on a thread, they will not rest until they have trashed out a conversation - any conversation - that hits too close to home about the Democratic party and liberals.

How do we handle that when they show up?

You probably recognize the two who are being attacked there. We know them under different usernames.

Well, obviously you are spinning your wheels there, those guys will probably get onboard only after everybody else already is. I don't know what other username Djinn goes by though.

I don't know what other username Djinn goes by though.
Phil is DBCooper. Djinn is Reality Bender.

Well, obviously you are spinning your wheels there, those guys will probably get on board only after everybody else...
They and others like them will show up here when we go public. I don't think they will ever be on board. They are much, much less likely to ever be on board with us than the majority of Republican voters are. We keep thinking that they are closer to us than the average Republican voter. We can't shake that idea. But they aren't, they are not at all anywhere near us. They claim to be - and why? So they can get close enough to destroy us. Yet so many people keep thinking that anyone who calls themselves a Democrat or a liberal is somehow more of a friend to us that the average Republican voter. It isn't true. There are no more determined and vicious opponents of the Left and of the people than those Democrats are.

Thinking that they are friends or allies distorts all of our thinking and paralyzes any action.

I don't know what other username Djinn goes by though.
Phil is DBCooper. Djinn is Reality Bender.

Well, obviously you are spinning your wheels there, those guys will probably get on board only after everybody else...
They and others like them will show up here when we go public. I don't think they will ever be on board. They are much, much less likely to ever be on board with us than the majority of Republican voters are. We keep thinking that they are closer to us than the average Republican voter. We can't shake that idea. But they aren't, they are not at all anywhere near us. They claim to be - and why? So they can get close enough to destroy us. Yet so many people keep thinking that anyone who calls themselves a Democrat or a liberal is somehow more of a friend to us that the average Republican voter. It isn't true. There are no more determined and vicious opponents of the Left and of the people than those Democrats are.

Thinking that they are friends or allies distorts all of our thinking and paralyzes any action.

Oh, what I was thinking was that if/when this catches fire, even mainstream politicians are going to eventually come around and they will drag these clowns right along..who will of course claim on the high ground on the basis of being 'visionaries' who were out in front of things..or some such nonsense.

Oh, what I was thinking was that if/when this catches fire, even mainstream politicians are going to eventually come around and they will drag these clowns right along..who will of course claim on the high ground on the basis of being 'visionaries' who were out in front of things..or some such nonsense.
Interesting. I wonder. They are so far out on their Left hating limb. Good questions. I don't know.

What I see right now is that we are still in danger of being snuffed out. We just have a little flicker going. We haven't really connected with our source of strength yet - the millions and millions of blue collar and poor people who are under the thumb of those haters and bullies and have no solidarity or leadership in order to fight back. There are people working hard at this who are very determined to snuff out this small spark wherever it arises. Once we get the flame fanned, it will grow. Right now, though, it wouldn't take much to extinguish it.

Oh, what I was thinking was that if/when this catches fire, even mainstream politicians are going to eventually come around and they will drag these clowns right along..who will of course claim on the high ground on the basis of being 'visionaries' who were out in front of things..or some such nonsense.
Interesting. I wonder. They are so far out on their Left hating limb. Good questions. I don't know.

What I see right now is that we are still in danger of being snuffed out. We just have a little flicker going. We haven't really connected with our source of strength yet - the millions and millions of blue collar and poor people who are under the thumb of those haters and bullies and have no solidarity or leadership in order to fight back. There are people working hard at this who are very determined to snuff out this small spark wherever it arises. Once we get the flame fanned, it will grow. Right now, though, it wouldn't take much to extinguish it.

Anax and chlamor are hashing this out somewhat, but one thing to keep in mind is we don't get to determine where this goes. Thats up to those who take to the streets and do it en masse..at that point we can't even insist they listen to us. Thats a scary proposition if deep down we don't trust the multitude.

And I think as a group we are ambivalent on that question. And people are going to pick up on that I think.

You can make a case that the fact we're not shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric is indicator enough that we are still milquetoast about this.

[quote="Kid Of The Black Hole":1hr6xldw]Oh, what I was thinking was that if/when this catches fire, even mainstream politicians are going to eventually come around and they will drag these clowns right along..who will of course claim on the high ground on the basis of being 'visionaries' who were out in front of things..or some such nonsense.
Interesting. I wonder. They are so far out on their Left hating limb. Good questions. I don't know.

What I see right now is that we are still in danger of being snuffed out. We just have a little flicker going. We haven't really connected with our source of strength yet - the millions and millions of blue collar and poor people who are under the thumb of those haters and bullies and have no solidarity or leadership in order to fight back. There are people working hard at this who are very determined to snuff out this small spark wherever it arises. Once we get the flame fanned, it will grow. Right now, though, it wouldn't take much to extinguish it.

Anax and chlamor are hashing this out somewhat, but one thing to keep in mind is we don't get to determine where this goes. Thats up to those who take to the streets and do it en masse..at that point we can't even insist they listen to us. Thats a scary proposition if deep down we don't trust the multitude.

And I think as a group we are ambivalent on that question. And people are going to pick up on that I think.

You can make a case that the fact we're not shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric is indicator enough that we are still milquetoast about this.[/quote:1hr6xldw]

Wadda you mean "we", white kid? I love ya but you don't get to "control" nothin'. I'll take the "multitude" any day of the week. You can get aboard, get a seat or get out of the way.

People are going to "pick up" on your "ambivalence"? Hah!

"They" will pick you up and toss you like a frisbee...

Ya gotta get out of Florida, Kid. Trust me.

but one thing to keep in mind is we don't get to determine where this goes. Thats up to those who take to the streets and do it en masse..at that point we can't even insist they listen to us. Thats a scary proposition if deep down we don't trust the multitude.

And I think as a group we are ambivalent on that question. And people are going to pick up on that I think.

You can make a case that the fact we're not shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric is indicator enough that we are still milquetoast about this.
Of course we don't control anything. There is no shortage of people who want to control other people. Our job is to "un-control" them - inspire and encourage them to break the chains.

They will listen to us if we ever have anything to say that is even remotely related to their, and our predicament. That is what we are working out here.

Who doesn't trust the multitude? Why aren't we shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric? Don't want to jeopardize our scholarship? Afraid we will lose our country club membership?

[quote="Kid Of The Black Hole":2ohig23c]Oh, what I was thinking was that if/when this catches fire, even mainstream politicians are going to eventually come around and they will drag these clowns right along..who will of course claim on the high ground on the basis of being 'visionaries' who were out in front of things..or some such nonsense.
Interesting. I wonder. They are so far out on their Left hating limb. Good questions. I don't know.

What I see right now is that we are still in danger of being snuffed out. We just have a little flicker going. We haven't really connected with our source of strength yet - the millions and millions of blue collar and poor people who are under the thumb of those haters and bullies and have no solidarity or leadership in order to fight back. There are people working hard at this who are very determined to snuff out this small spark wherever it arises. Once we get the flame fanned, it will grow. Right now, though, it wouldn't take much to extinguish it.

Anax and chlamor are hashing this out somewhat, but one thing to keep in mind is we don't get to determine where this goes. Thats up to those who take to the streets and do it en masse..at that point we can't even insist they listen to us. Thats a scary proposition if deep down we don't trust the multitude.

And I think as a group we are ambivalent on that question. And people are going to pick up on that I think.

You can make a case that the fact we're not shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric is indicator enough that we are still milquetoast about this.

Wadda you mean "we", white kid? I love ya but you don't get to "control" nothin'. I'll take the "multitude" any day of the week. You can get aboard, get a seat or get out of the way.

People are going to "pick up" on your "ambivalence"? Hah!

"They" will pick you up and toss you like a frisbee...

Ya gotta get out of Florida, Kid. Trust me.[/quote:2ohig23c]

I am going to have to take a minute and figure how that came across as self-inflated as you took it. Do you think the current tone of this site comes across as ambivalent?

Why aren't we shouting Assata Speaks rhetoric? Don't want to jeopardize our scholarship? Afraid we will lose our country club membership?
You say that rhetorically (I think), Mike, but it's a real issue. That's one of the best tools of repression the ruling class has: deprivation. It used to be a rule that actions required both actors and support, since if something happens to the actor (arrest, sacking, etc) they're screwed in this society. So it's very hard to take risks, cos they're much bigger risks around here than in Europe where there's a formal safety net or Chiapas where there's an informal one. Here, if we get into trouble, we're on our own. I think that's a majorly significant bar to action that we'd better solve if we want anything to happen.

You say that rhetorically (I think), Mike, but it's a real issue. That's one of the best tools of repression the ruling class has: deprivation. It used to be a rule that actions required both actors and support, since if something happens to the actor (arrest, sacking, etc) they're screwed in this society. So it's very hard to take risks, cos they're much bigger risks around here than in Europe where there's a formal safety net or Chiapas where there's an informal one. Here, if we get into trouble, we're on our own. I think that's a majorly significant bar to action that we'd better solve if we want anything to happen.
Wow. It is hopeless, in that case.

You say that rhetorically (I think), Mike, but it's a real issue. That's one of the best tools of repression the ruling class has: deprivation. It used to be a rule that actions required both actors and support, since if something happens to the actor (arrest, sacking, etc) they're screwed in this society. So it's very hard to take risks, cos they're much bigger risks around here than in Europe where there's a formal safety net or Chiapas where there's an informal one. Here, if we get into trouble, we're on our own. I think that's a majorly significant bar to action that we'd better solve if we want anything to happen.
Wow. It is hopeless, in that case.
Hopeless??? Whyso? Harder, yes, but surely not hopeless. Why would it be hopeless?

Hopeless??? Whyso? Harder, yes, but surely not hopeless. Why would it be hopeless?
If we can't wholeheartedly attack the conditions - which are that we are at risk - because of the conditions - there is too much risk - then we are in a trap.

I think you described the trap well. We see it influencing people all the time. It is merely in our minds, of course. It may be more ingrained than I thought. There is no way out of it, that I can see. We may as well work within the Democratic party, since everything the party is doing is based on accepting the trap. This is such a fundamental premise that keeps the existing conditions in place, that it is self-contradictory to say that we could significantly change conditions while not confronting and breaking through this trap. It is the main thinking that facilitates divide and conquer, and divide and conquer is what allows the mess we are in, and when we say that we can't get too radical because we can't take personal risks we are doing yeoman duty to advance the divide and conquer agenda.

That is the way that we are causing the problems, and why we are as responsible for the current mess as the Republican voters. While we aren't as clumsy and ugly as those whom Raph lampooned as the bad guys – those idiot Bush voters and flag wavers – the role we are playing is much more important to the ruling class, because we are preventing any serious opposition from ever forming.

Hopeless??? Whyso? Harder, yes, but surely not hopeless. Why would it be hopeless?
If we can't wholeheartedly attack the conditions - which are that we are at risk - because of the conditions - there is too much risk - then we are in a trap.

I think you described the trap well. We see it influencing people all the time. It is merely in our minds, of course. It may be more ingrained than I thought. There is no way out of it, that I can see. We may as well work within the Democratic party, since everything the party is doing is based on accepting the trap. This is such a fundamental premise that keeps the existing conditions in place, that it is self-contradictory to say that we could significantly change conditions while not confronting and breaking through this trap. It is the main thinking that facilitates divide and conquer, and divide and conquer is what allows the mess we are in, and when we say that we can't get too radical because we can't take personal risks we are doing yeoman duty to advance the divide and conquer agenda.

That is the way that we are causing the problems, and why we are as responsible for the current mess as the Republican voters. While we aren't as clumsy and ugly as those whom Raph lampooned as the bad guys – those idiot Bush voters and flag wavers – the role we are playing is much more important to the ruling class, because we are preventing any serious opposition from ever forming.
I agree that if we can't change the conditions, then we're in the gyppo for sure. But I don't agree that we can't change the conditions. People used to change the conditions quite often. We could do it too.

How many people who work in the war industry would go for the idea that we're going to shut it down and put them all out of work? Close to zero would be my guess! But how about if we had a plan that they're not going to get hurt, that if we put them out of work then their expenses are all going to get covered while they transition into new work?