I was posting a reconciliation proposal when I was banned, so I will post it here now.

Proposal

Once again we have the same feud that went on at PFC, PI and many other boards, with people lining up into warring factions.

The basis of the feuds in political disagreements, not rules or civility or anything else. There are rude people on both sides, and polite people on both sides. There are rule breakers on both sides, and in recent days the worst violations of the rules here have been by people supposedly defending and enforcing the rules!

Andrea and her team are being put in a horrible position, and I am now in arguments with people I know and like - WFH and saracat for example. Tinoire was put in the same position a few months back, and Mike at PFC has been through this. The same thing happened at the old Clark board and the DFA board. Generally speaking at all of the boards the same faction has won out. At PI, the faction with which I am associated won out for once. Big deal, it isn't the end of the world LOL. Geez. Tinoire was pretty heavy handed with the bannings - although people were way out of control there and half crazed in a frenzy. I consistently argued against people being banned, with one exception - I lost my temper and banned usrename. I copped to that, apologized and reinstated him.

I said seven years ago, and will say again, that the differences and the source of the trouble are political differences and that those differences may well be irreconcilable. All I have called for is clarity about that, in a climate of mutual respect, yet it keeps devolving into bitter hostility and acrimony. For a while here there were some pretty good discussions between people from the two different factions, and OET was humming along nicely. I was posting here, and for a while a few months ago I as probably the most prolific poster. As I told Andrea at the time, I as trying to keep interest going here through a slow period, and I asked her if she minded if I posted and if I posted the things I was posting. I always deferred to her. Other than a couple of people repeatedly dragging feuds here from other boards and pestering me, there weren't any problems. "Pestering" - is that OK? Can I claim to have been pestered without starting yet another uproar?

I don't think that the people from the two sides of this divide are political allies, I don't think they are going in the same direction. I think that is an illusion. It is the illusion that is causing all of the problems, not the political disagreements. That is why we argue about rules and definitions, and that is why those arguments always go badly and turn into a huge shitstorm.

So, my proposal...

* Let's agree to give up on this idea that we are all going in the same direction and are on the same team, and accept that there are some profound differences. I actually think that the two factions are farther apart politically then liberal and conservatives, or Republicans and Democrats are. It is a shotgun wedding and it always results in a bad outcome.

* People withdraw to their respective camps for the time being. One faction has gained the upper hand here, the other faction has PI and SI.

* Andrea and I work on an agreement that ends the feuding and allows her to move forward with OET as she sees fit.

* If people are up for it, we form an independent group with representatives from both sides on some neutral ground here or elsewhere to hammer out the differences - not to fight and argue about who is right, but to establish the ground rules for any future debates between the two factions - and negotiate and resolve the issues without a bunch of innocent bystanders being forced to choose sides or be caught in the crossfire.

indeed, they in direct opposition. I do not think that the problem lies in anyone seriously thinking that the two sides are compatible, I think that the problems lie in the fact that the leftists have economics, history, and reality on our side and the libertarians have none of that - they only have capitalism. They appear to be completely incapable of defending or advancing their ideas without personal attacks, because they have almost nothing else. They seem to be out to justify or explain away their lifestyles and their privileges and they can only view the "debate" as a personal attack. Whenever you try and talk about real economics and power distribution, they start talking about their personal lives and what and why they have and do whatever it is they have and do. They almost insist on making every discussion about personal lives. I do not see how to avoid this, because if the "debate" sticks to economics, history, and reality, then they will lose the debate - and they know it. Just my 1.5 cents...

They are in a bind, because they have to promote libertarianism while at the same time disguising that. When someone points that out all hell breaks loose.

And all that nastiness.

Can't make heads or tails of the conflict over there, but apparently once "who's paying for this site" became an issue the team colors came out and people reflexively started lining up based on all that is opposite that which is collective.

An apt metaphor. Or is that even a metaphor?

In the meantime, there are some sharp people getting recruited over there and I would encourage them to keep speaking up and out.

Andrea will never have a more loyal and supportive friend than she had in me. I had promised that I would help her with OET no matter what, and through all of the insanity over the last year and a half and the nasty fights and everything, I never wavered from that promise because nothing had happened - until now - to release me from it. The people waving the "you are abusing Andrea" bloody towel now, and kissing her ass and "defending" her are fair weather friends pushing their own agenda at her expense. She has lost all power there now over her own project, and having manipulated her once and held her hostage the people who made this power play will always have her under their thumb.

?

Not sure what you are asking. Do you mean who is in which faction?

Some people got run off, some thought that was a good idea. Those who did not think that was a good idea also got run of. Ergo, "two factions."

If you are asking why there are to factions, what the basis for that is, that is something we are talking about and to gain a better understanding.

Radical democrats (200 years ago French variety), traditional Socialists, and Commies...

versus...

Democratic Mixed-Economy Socialists, True Liberals, and Libertarians.

OR... Roundheads versus Long-hairs...

where the roundheads look like this:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n85/omelet4th/mill.jpg

and the Long-hairs look like this:

http://madameguillotine.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/st-just_3.jpg

but, not this:

http://www.parliament.uk/actofunion/lib/visuals/images/3420-1-M.jpg

...although some of the Long-hairs have short hair, like this:

http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/m/pics/marat-jean.jpg

OR... people who incorporate at least one word from the current lexicon in their slogans ("democratic", "freedom", etc.)...

versus...

...people who reject all such words in their slogans, in favor of old nasty words.

but about privilege and hierarchy for sure...

It had nothing to do with civility/personal attacks (in fact the biggest abusers - and those behind the whole semi-radioactive fallout - have been running amok and unchecked), it had everything to do with the leftists who expressed solidarity with Chlamor and Mike/Two Americas.

I really would like to apologize to people whom I personally invited to OET. I had no idea any of this would happen, and I most definitely did not expect this crap from Andrea.

It was only a question of when. I actually thought Chlamor would be banned much sooner, and had several arguments over the Knight's over-zealous modding of him (in the mods forum) back when I was involved. Mike strongly objected to any banning on the site, and was over-ruled when Kid was banned as well. This is not out of character for Andrea, and I don't believe she is being duped by anyone.

in the bathtub reading as he was knifed? except his hair is long, unlike Marat...

Mike is a long haired hippie? My world just imploded (for the second time today, the first being the bombshell that Oprah slept with John Tesh. Tesh. The woman has no standards)

Well, I hadn't even known about the existence of these boards (PI, OET, etc.) until several months ago.

And guess what the catalytic/"cataclysmic" event (that led me to discover all these "alternative" boards) was?

It was Orwellian Ghost's TS'ing at DU. Single-handedly.


I dunno, just some food for thought perhaps for those who like to ban and censor people.

Andrea says:

"In addition to our own rules, we must abide by the laws of the United States."

Balantz follows:

"Yes, unfortunately even if we may not agree with those laws, they have to be followed or we will face the consequences."

====================

AJake sez:

"I understand the point of the crisis is to let people air shit out.

However, it has become obvious that there are two sides going back and forth publicly.

Andrea has restated the rules. The Mods will enforce them, people are free to object to Andrea but if she stands by the Mods decision that is that. If some people don't like this they are free to leave.

This back and forth is absolutely fucking ridiculous, and Nikki and Saracat, you are Mods. You really don't have to justify your decisions that much with anyone if Andrea is backing you up. I don't see why either of you feel the need to.

If a subgroup wants to express their opinions and monitor the debate with their rules, they should ask to have a writers forum and than they can pick a person who has mod abilities.

If Mike or anyone else objects to the rules on the site right now, give him a fucking writers forum give him mod supervision and be done with it. If people don't like Mike's rules, they don't fucking post.

My neighbor is always bitching about what is going on in the yard of the house my mother and I share, you know what I did, I planted Rose Hedges along the fence so I don't have to deal with her."

================

Here's a sequence for ya':


Quote from: Nikki Stone says:

"You are welcome to your opinion, of course, no matter how wrongheaded it is. But when you misread intent and attack people based on your misreading of them, THAT is abusive. And you do that all the time. Your strategy does not help the cause of socialism. All it does is feed your need to be right when you're jonesing for a fix."

Inna sez:

"And Nikki Stone 1 is an arbiter of truth, fairness and justice on this board."


Saracat Says:
"Yes, she is, just as are all our mods, and she is entitled to at least a modicum of respect for all her work."

Chlamor sez:

"Oh really. Is there a food chain here where certain folks have a higher import than others? Do certain folk have some Secret(tm) insight that the schlubs lack which then deems them "arbiters of the truth?" That's about as damning as it gets.

"We the enlightened..."

Amazing amount of "work" by Nikki Stone, ooh I stand in awe. I bow to her imperial attitude..."

=====================

Jake chimes in posting picture of monkey with gun:

"If you all don't knock it off I'm going to volunteer to be a Mod and no one is going to be happy."

Toughguy Jake also sez:

"I generally prefer shotguns.

Couldn't find a Monkey with a shotgun."

Jake again:

"Street Sweeper too! My favorite.

Nothing like the sound of the putting a round in the chamber to ensure you probably don't have to fire it."

Damn that boy need a posse!

===================

Political Heretic starts out cryin' and then gets to hard assin' it with a little ass-kissin' thrown in for good measure:

"All I want is for this to end.

If that means banning your ass and usernames ass to the crisis forever, I'd do it if I was in charge. One of the two of you would feel that's unfair, but I'd fucking do it and let God sort it out.

Chlamors already indicated that he thinks fuck the rules, fuck the mods, fuck everyone and everything that isn't him. So the next time he broke the rules, I'd ban his ass to the crisis too.

When DancingBear rolls in to make a crying thread about banning username and how unfair it is - I'd warn him once to fucking drop it. Then when he did it again, I'd ban his fucking ass to the crisis too.

Then I'd never come to the crisis again as long as I live.

Ban the four of you and this place would function in pretty close proximity to harmony. That's sad, but its 100% fucking true, and EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

Now, Andrea seems to be much kinder and willing to put up with bullshit than me. Consider yourselves lucky. This isn't a government. It's not a democracy. And I've got no problem being an internet tyrant. Think I'm a hypocrite? Sweet. I don't care. Be thankful I'm not in charge, because as far as I'm concerned its time for some solid ass kickings.

Sigh. I'm done talking about this with you, or with anyone else. Speaking of disengaging, I wash my hands with all four of you on this particular feud and spate. Just be glad Andrea is in charge and not me."

Damn he and Jake gots to get a posse and kick dat internet ass!!

==========================

Jake sez:


"or me"

And he posts another picture of a monkey with a gun. He needs more human contact in my opinion.

==================

Andrea and Jake stake out a relationship as Andrea replies:

"Jake the Trunk Monkey Primitive."

Is she flirtin' here?

======================

All the cool people start postin' monkey pictures.

=================

Jake shows more of his civility (w/out monkey pic):

"Seriously drop it, or I'm going to stop being as polite as I usually am (somewhat sacrasm)

That goes for both sides continuing this fucking utter tripe."

===============

Quote from: Nikki Stone sez:

How great is OET!

"You have personally insulted and slandered a couple of moderators and no one has deleted your posts and no one has banned you.

I hope you continue to enjoy your stay on this board."

Mike sez:

"This is out of line - making veiled threats at other members and writing snark little things like "enjoy your stay on this board." That is exactly the sort if thing people let DU to escape.

The other member is disagreeing with and objecting to the behavior of a couple of people in very specific terms, not "slandering" or "insulting" anyone.

Are people not to challenge the things that mods say? And how does that differ from the authoritarianism way that mods at DU act?"

Nikki tells Mike he's too upset:

"A veiled threat?Huh?

Mike, you are over the edge. I highly encourage you to calm down. Arg U Mentor is allowed to post as long as she wishes to. The mods follow the rules here, even if some other people don't.

You really need to calm down."

===========

PH sez stick to the rules and freedom ain't free.

"Quote from: Mike here:
Freedom is not something granted or "allowed" by people in authority, or it is not freedom."

PH clarifies his obedience:

"You're right. We don't have freedoms here. What we have is a contract. You agree to the conditions for posting in this private space when you sign up and post post here, and in exchange you have access to all of the forums and discussion opportunities that fall within those parameters.

Mike sez:
"Be careful how you post?" The people who have been the instigators of the trouble here are not required to be careful what they post. Their "punishment" is to get the threads of other moved to the Crisis, which is probably their intention."

PH wanrs about flagrant chlamor antics (nice phrase I'd say):

"When they get as flagrant chlamors antics - then we might have a paired example. Until then, no such example exists. "

=============

Jake says beware the disruptor:

"Jesus H. Christ man, Andrea has stated the rule 7 times, yet you continue on this pointless debate.

Not once have I ever interfered in any discussion you have had in my forum. I was trying to do you a favor by telling you to shut up.

You continue to pull this nonsense of arguing over whether or not the rules are being used against you, yet you are still fucking here.

I have nothing against you personally, but the thing you fail to understand about any community is it has rules.

My advice shut the fuck up. That is my honest and straight forward advice.

Chlamor was disrupting, your temper tantrum over that fact makes thing worse.

Get over it."

=============

And Jake shows more of the hallowed OET civility responding to Mike:

"Dude if you think this place is a place of conspiracies to get you either get help or fucking leave.

If you honestly think that, why the hell would you hang around a place that wants to "get" you.

Are you retarded or a masochist."

===============

Context here:

http://www.oldelmtree.com/discussion/index.php?topic=7583.0

What shocks me the most is just the deplorable lack of etiquette, mostly on my part. I feel contrite and admit fully to the fact that my rude manners may have sullied some members of the community.

Not only had I forgotten the importance of etiquette, a sin in and of itself, but I had even forgotten that the word existed For that there is no refuge only deep remorse. Recognizing the full import of tone and manners I now feel wholly rejuvenated and understand fully my sinful ways and hope to atone for my heathen manner. I can only pray that during this time of recovery those who were subjected to my coarse being will one day accept that I am a changed man, a changed man I tell you.

http://static.open.salon.com/files/etiquette-in-the-workplace%5b1%5d1229797925.jpg

you really have to kill your tv!!! ;)

and remember freedom ain't free....

Ludicrous, hysterically ludicrous...

(Love the picture...perfect)

on edit a reminder (like its needed)

"In different times- less urgent times- there is much to be said for courtesy. But these are not those times."

right on.

Though that whole mess at OET I wasn't the slightest bit upset, angry or anything else, though they kept saying I was throwing a "temper tantrum" and needed to calm down. I was so calm I had to keep forcing myself to get interested and respond so that we could finish the damned thing already. I didn't really care very much about the outcome either, since I know how that movie ends. I was just reading my lines blah blah blah so we could get to the final curtain and put it behind us once and for all. I did think that for the sake of the hostages there someone ought to speak out, so I did. But it was more like watching an old movie for the 20th time than it was like doing anything engaging or important or challenging - now so and so will call me an asshole, and then I will point out that calling a person an asshole for not being civil is hypocritical, then they will say I am mentally deranged (obsessed, paranoid, delusional), then I will point out their hypocrisy again, and then the other person will jump in with a personal attack blah blah blah, and then we will have a little red-bating, and then someone will claim that we are always claiming that they are red-baiting and that it is just a tactic for us to say that, then someone else will say that accusing them of red-baiting is a personal attack on them, and personal attacks are against the rules, and them make a personal attack or two on me. Seems that the calmer I was, the more upset they got and the more they told me to calm down.

The worst thing about banishment is that the communications lines get severed, so relationships get damaged, people lose touch, ongoing discussions are disrupted - often permanently - etc.

I talked to Rocky today and he didn't even know that anything had gone down. Weeks could have gone by and for all he knew I had just stopped posting there (and therefore stopped communicating with him.)

Anyone who is still there should get in touch with the sympathetic people - followthemoney, prospero, Bellator, Maxdadog, TGBY and I don't know who all. I was able to get in touch with Rocky and Allen.

that it is being portrayed as "leftists" vs. "libertarians.'

nicely done

That is one way to put it. That makes sense to us here, because we agree about the meanings of those words. May not be helpful to others.

illustration, i don't know what "real liberals" are.

"Real" liberals means some illusion about what liberals are supposed to be. It changes all the time.

But I swear we shouda nuked the place when we were getting stonewalled about the funding.

It occurs to me that there is a time line here: 1)we get insistent about lack of support, 2)Andrea moves to new server, 3)purge.

Coincidence? Mebbe, mebbe not.

she needed to get her ducks in a row so she could move. This has been going on since Mike and I left our admin/mod positions. At that time she was freaking out that you would pull the plug, BP. Since then she has been adding mods that will not disagree with her, and building up her support. This has been building a long time. She's got what she wants now I believe, with her supportive "columnists". Next will be more build-up to selling her artwork, which she couldn't really figure out how to do before. With more funding that will re-surface. I don't really begrudge her any of it, this is how capitalists think, just wish she'd be more honest about what she's doing.

I've told Max about the situation.

We did exactly the right thing.

Of course your scenario is 100% accurate. There wasn't any conscious plan behind it, though. They did what they had to do, given what they are about.

I think it is perfection the way it played out. Couldn't ask for anything better - given the nature of the beast.

Good to see you. :)