I don't post much on any of the boards of which I am a member. Mainly, because I write very slowly, but also because I do a lot of the agiprop work for the labor organization that I am committed to work for.

Here's the deal: I think politics are only about class power. I can't remember how I first encountered the so called returning members here, but ironically it was because they didn't offer a sectarian vision of a good society, that I began to first visit this site and then followed them to other boards after they were banished here. I wasn't one of the banned on Progressive Independent and rarely posted on SI. While I can't speak for them, I believe they would agree with me that anything that mediates class antagonisms disempowers workers.

Some of them have chosen to attack liberalism as a way to open spaces for worker power. I couldn't agree more. It's really pretty simple, everything, whether on-line or being involved in reform struggles that only recognize the ruling class and its agents as a legitimate power for change, negates class struggle.

We need to be talking about building worker power. How does anything you think, believe in or act on empower working people. Some of you insist on a grand solution, some of us only care about building power, step by step, for the people that produce all the value we enjoy .

but if you think about pre-capitalist relations, and filter it through Marx, an important point is that the serfs (ie those who did not own means of production=land, and there were a lot of wage laborers in some countries who get lumped in as well) were not really "the serfs".

While they constituted a class, there was no way for them to come together as a class and/or express their interest as a class. I mean shit, the landlord in Russia was working in the fields alongside everyone else whereas they had a great excess of manpower in England by, say, the 11th century.

A class interest is common to all proletarians ie ALL workers. That forces a rethink because a great many things that are presented as politics pass by the way side from this outlook. It is very stern on that point. Even "We The People" is a suspect statement when looked at from a class perspective.

Mainly I am trying to flesh out class power because we are very susceptible on this site to being accused of vacant sloganeering. There also seems to be aversion to acknowledging that the interest can be so simple: you can state it in three or four sentences max.

This line probably belongs in the mission statement we're talking about in another thread: anything that mediates class antagonisms disempowers workers.

My first job as a 12-year old was "babysitting" at a farm. The owners grew cucumbers and it was quite a large operation. Work was from 7am - 7 pm. Cooking 3 meals for 10-12 people (the family and top hands), babysitting for 4 kids under 7, and housework. It paid $1.00 per hour. At the end of the summer my dad turned them into the state for labor violations, and they were already being investigated for migrant worker issues, so the penalties were harsh. I ended up getting a huge back-pay check because the state determined I should've at least been making minimum wage (around 3.35 an hour at that point).

As a member of the working class I thank you for the work you're continuing to do.

I agree.

Got so wrapped up in thinking about it, I forgot to say this

"vacant sloganeering"

No, it's not. I'm involved with a membership organization that (only in the last few months) has begun to understand class as the determinant of oppression.

Yeah, I think it is that simple: "you can state it in three or four sentences max."

I have.

Please, feel free to elaborate, you're not gonna make me feel bad.

Curt

that is the accusation you will be met with here, just for using the word "class" if nothing else

I wasn't saying that myself, only saying that the plainer we state things the better BUT with the caveat that plain statements aren't going over so well either

catch-22 I know

(also, I'm not sure talking about class antagonisms and worker empowerment reaches a broad enough audience in terms of using as a mission statement or things like that..there is this weird thing going on where no matter how direct we think it is, others are claiming it is too vague)

I can't explain it, but your plain way of speaking has broken a log jam in my reasoning and how to deal with "elitist" attitudes within the ranks of my local union...strange where the light bulbs can be turned on!

Lack of identification as working class is maybe the biggest roadblock.

People need to remember where they come from.

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/dc/2-18-stepskimber9.jpg

Saturday morning in Highlandtown

and welcome back.

I see no choice but to build worker power. While I *thought* I was all for that in the past, I realize now that we can't build it in conjuction with capitalism.

Workers' rights have been eroded to the point that now, the owners of the capital, plainly tell you to leave if you don't like havied a salaried position that pays less than the minimum wage.

I ran into an old friend from DU this weekend. Her husband is a car salesman. He gets 3 days off every 14 days and works long hours. His pay is $1000 month- in Northern California! But if he doesn't like it, he can "leave".

It's really pretty simple, everything... that only recognize the ruling class and its agents as a legitimate power for change, negates class struggle

Couldn't agree more.

your experiences with this "elitist attitude" among members of your union? I was trying to talk about this a week or so ago and got my lunch handed to me. I have encountered the same thing and have trouble dealing with it...

I guess the most blatant example would be a recent email sent by one of the co-presidents to all teachers where she directed us to maintain our professional attire at all times, even when cleaning our room...Oh and I vacuum in an evening dress I wanted to say, but the real point is, unions are not management, they do not make mandates...and to put more working conditions (dress can be that) on its members was beyond tolerance! (they did backpedal after hearing that from several including me).

Another thing that really bothers me is the Executive Board, being a building rep I have the questionable privilege of being on it. How they talk about the membership at times can be truly disturbing... and they make decisions, that I think really should be taken to the general meetings, way too much confidential stuff and not wanting to get involved in "idiotic discussions" (one officer's words...). I guess I just don't see a whole lot of the fraternal attitude I would like to see, nor, at times, respect. There are two incidents regarding the "resignation" of members from the district that I cannot discuss, but that I feel would truly prove this point...

One other example would be when a fellow building rep wanted the union to "brand" the local YMCA building project. He wanted to ask all members to make a monthly donation, like many do to the poly-action fund. Another rep protested that for us to brand this project was elitist (I loved her for this), that the Y had a $75 family membership fee which, considering the demographics of our area, may have been afforded by 20-25% of the students' families, not something she (nor I voicing an agreement) thought was what a teachers' union should support. Besides this, he wanted us to vote on it at that moment, not take it to the general membership...

Anyway, hope this helps a little?

Part of the problem we face (it seems to me) is over coming a lot of baggage that many of us working people carry with us all the time. Too many of us identify with the bosses - even when we recognize that they are acting against our best interests. Anyway, thanks for the enlightening...

and I would add "realizing that you are working class". So-called white collar jobs gave people the illusion that sitting in a cube with a suit on, at abysmally low wages (because they call you a manager and you then are ineligible for O/T pay), makes them some sort of boss and better than everyone else. This is a huge problem amongst democrats.

has a lot to do with it. One insidious provision of that reactionary law is that foremen are made part of management. The foremen, up from the ranks, knowledgeable and respected, are the natural leaders of the workers.This act effectively decapitates the workers, forcing accomplished workers to chose between the Man and his money and solidarity. Perhaps the chummy relationships forged by 'lunch pail unionism' makes this less onerous but the effect is the same. Ya know, 'if these guys feel this way......'.

I saw this when the city, including the zoo, went on strike. The senior keepers(foremen and women) were obliged to side with management, they convinced a portion of the keepers, mebbe 30% to scab, camp out at the zoo, what an adventure! Of course, the issue of the critter's care was on all minds, but the majority felt that a few days of 'light work' wouldn't hurt the critters and that a little hard work on the part of the seniors would do them some good. If things had stretched out we would consider other arrangements.

As it happened management forced the unions hand by what must be considered a brilliant maneuver. The Assistant Director got on the tube the first evening of the strike and announced to the public that since there was 'no one' to care for the beasts that they would start feeding the smaller animals to the larger ones. Faced with a PR disaster the union announced that keepers would report to work for only the purpose of bare minimum maintenance of livestock. Didn't punch clock, street cloths, got in, got er done and left, we got full pay. The strike lasted two weeks got a bit nasty and ended with a mediocre deal.

Brilliant and evil maneuver by the zoo management, like the Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11 in microcosm...yow!

Is that until you get up into the owners' and rulers' leagues, all of us are workers, doctors, lawyers, executive management even...Brilliant schemes to dangle the fruit in front of those who aspire to elitism, not relizing that the foundation they are standing on is other people, who might just decide not to withstand the weight anymore...

too bad more of us don't identify with our fellow workers on a daily basis... a teacher complained to me about one of the janitors calling her by her first name, I was shocked and dismayed (not common these days) I did tell her "we're all in this together" I was pretty speechless...the elitist attitude is rife...