[quote]Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies
...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.

-anaxarchos
{/quote]

This is a good way to broach the subject of "what would you do?" although the cynics always have the easy out of "that stuff will never happen". But fuck 'em..

I found a thread to post it in: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5002765&mesg_id=5002765

Now will sit back and watch the heads explode.

Anax already had it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4989577&mesg_id=4999114

but a good message bears repeating again and again, make it an OP?

Well I refuted all your points there lol.

Wonder if anyone will think I was serious and agree with me?

Well I refuted all your points there lol.

Wonder if anyone will think I was serious and agree with me?


I thought what you wrote was terrific. I don't think anyone will respond (except for me).

Of all of the points I made above, by far the most striking is the one about "hire all 20 million unemployed". It is the nub of the matter at the moment. They will spend $7 trillion dollars to "create" 1.5 million jobs and to keep the rest from tanking, rather than to spend one tenth of that (if the government jobs make nothing at all - if they are productive, it would be a wash) to employ everyone, raise the overall standard of living, and change the game. Of course, all of this is to save capital from any competition from the government sector and the whole of this is so ingrained that people seem unable to do the simple arithmetic of it... or not to believe it if they do.

They must be missin' somethin'... it is another sadness to go on the existing great pyramid of woes.

Well I refuted all your points there lol.

Wonder if anyone will think I was serious and agree with me?


Hey Mike,

Are you going to be around here tonite or sometime soon? I had a thought or two about "liberalism" I wanted to run by you but it is more of a conversation starter than a fleshed out post. I was kind of wiating for the rant you promised since I was planning to use that as a springboard of sorts ;)

Well I refuted all your points there lol.

Wonder if anyone will think I was serious and agree with me?


Hey Mike,

Are you going to be around here tonite or sometime soon? I had a thought or two about "liberalism" I wanted to run by you but it is more of a conversation starter than a fleshed out post. I was kind of wiating for the rant you promised since I was planning to use that as a springboard of sorts ;)


Hey yeah I have been around. Didn't notice your reply until right now. Working on some music, and will be around another 3 hours. Might be getting late where you are.

I am working out the greatest tune. Used to play it years ago with my balalaika player, even recorded it and played it on stage a few times, but it is really coming together now like it never quite did in the past. Got the right key finally, the riffs are all happening.

Here is a pretty good version of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWCokvYelb4

Damn I love the whole thing - the button box, the stickers on the back of the bass, that viola player, the whistle. What I wouldn't do to play with a viola player like that.

I have got to hook up with some accompanists like those guys before the game is over. Got to get back on the road and on stage, too.

Nigel is a little over the top, and some of the stuff he tries doesn't work real well. He cuts corners and fudges a lot to get through the tough passages. My balalaika player used to do that, since he had that really primitive instrument - 3 strings and two of them tuned to the same note. I think I always erred too much the other direction without realizing that I was - sticking to the score, or exactly the way the old timers played it. Taking a break from playing and then coming back to it, I am finding that I am much more comfortable pushing the boundaries and cutting loose and improvising and embellishing. A paradox, because the stuff I am doing now is more difficult, but it is coming easier. I could easily keep up with Nigel's ensemble, much more so then trying to play the piece with classical musicians, even though it is more difficult to play the way Nigel's guys are playing there.

Well I refuted all your points there lol.

Wonder if anyone will think I was serious and agree with me?


Hey Mike,

Are you going to be around here tonite or sometime soon? I had a thought or two about "liberalism" I wanted to run by you but it is more of a conversation starter than a fleshed out post. I was kind of wiating for the rant you promised since I was planning to use that as a springboard of sorts ;)


Hey yeah I have been around. Didn't notice your reply until right now. Working on some music, and will be around another 3 hours. Might be getting late where you are.

I am working out the greatest tune. Used to play it years ago with my balalaika player, even recorded it and played it on stage a few times, but it is really coming together now like it never quite did in the past. Got the right key finally, the riffs are all happening.


Yeah it was midnight when I finally saw you on, but I will summarize for now. I was reading your "close-a-clysm" and then I accidentally clicked on a link at DU and it turned out to be a thread about marijuana busts.

What I am thinking is that traditional liberalism is really the nexus that everything still revolves around, and the marijuana thread is the perfect case in point.

The gist was posters asking "Why is it criminal to grow/produce/transport if it is legal in some cases?" Basically arguing about the law and enforcement and the institutions that "safeguard" it. That is classsic traditional liberalism (which I am trying, maybe in vain, to distinguish from its modern incarnation..but half of my point is that they are not so distant from each other to start with)

It starts, of course, with "civili society" and contract law and definitions and establishment of sovreignty. Marx is very good on this btw, as he discusses political "freedom" in the form of liberal "rights" which are in reality protections of one from another, ie a division between men grounded on the premise that each is threatened by all others. Its a form of individuation that may offer varying benefit depending on your perspective, but is indisputably very beneficial and maybe even integral to bourgeoisie merchant society.

Its really a libertarian argument of freedom through non-interference and separation except in narrowly defined channels of interaction (exchange relations, codification of laws and so on)

Look at how they define and internalize the conception of the State on DU, something that is implicit in almost literally every discussion there -- it is really just shorthand for private property, rights of claim, establishment of sovreignty, enforcement vehicle, mechanisms for representation, the "will" of the people, and so on

EDITed to add: basically Civil Society takes the place of religion. Instead of being all God's children everyone is "equal under the Law"

Without mish-mashing terms, its all very "conservative" in practice: the entire debate centers around which procedures and which laws we should all agree upon and institutionalize so as to best preserve and implement the "rules". Very "rule of law" centric. If you think about it, this is also the prescription followed by most "Marxists", eh? This is what M Pyre -- and s/he is representative -- wanted to talk about at the expense of everything else

Partially I am on this kick because I've been thinking about Aristotle recently. All of the above was, for lack of a better term, alien to him. For him, all were in agreement because the polis was a cooperative enterprise in the first place. The simplicity is startling. Hegel follows Aristotle, and expands the polity into civil society (not the liberal definition) and then comes Marx.

Rousseau enters the picture as well, because he most directly connects this up with the that favorite modern liberal past time of "opinion". To him, all opinion is in a sense "false". To begin with opinion is in opposition to the classical pursuit of knowledge (philsophy) because it is so obviously and directly counterposed to the search for capital-T Truth.

But more than this it is an artefact of bourgeoisie society and socialization. It is neither legitimate inspection (ie scientific) nor is it introspection (ie self-examination) since it is so bound up with the trappings of the society that produces it. It is also not a dialogue (or dialectic) as it was understood in antiquity since there is no aim to collaborate or even to produce the most excellent final result. In this context it is understood as, at bottom, anti-intellectual

Like I said, I am more working over ideas than trying to present somthing finalized. Just seems to me that what we're seeing now is not so far removed from Locke and Hobbes let alone Rawls, Habermas, Arendt et cetera

EDIT: sorry if this is too stream-of-conscious or not clear

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5016383


Republican Francophobia or Why the hell DON'T we just go to Socialism?

Face it, our banks have failed and they can't be trusted to run themselves. For every bailout check we send them, the hookers may get rich, but other non-CSW Americans won't.

Health Care System has failed. Just watch Michael Moore's "Sicko" if you don't believe me.

So my question is, all this "pump up the fear" rhetoric the GOPpies are giving us about "being like France," I just gotta say "What in the hell is wrong with THAT?"

The French have Health Care for all, their banks are under much more scrutiny than ours, unemployment insurance is guaranteed and not such a hassle to get, and they educate your kids from Pre-School to Grad School for free. Yeah, that sure sounds like the suck

So let's nationalize BofA - let's nationalize the oil companies (sorry Dick and Bush) - lets nationalize the school system, or at least kick out the private ones, and the health care industry. Single payer buddy, and if you don't like that, Somalia is always open to new residents. You'll like that whole "no government" thing they're doing over there.

Err... um... I wasn't thinkin' "France".

Unless its the France of 1793... or 1870.

http://openesf.net/projects/esf-activists-news-network/project-home/companiera-paris-commune.jpg

Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies
...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.

-anaxarchos



That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5016383


Republican Francophobia or Why the hell DON'T we just go to Socialism?

Face it, our banks have failed and they can't be trusted to run themselves. For every bailout check we send them, the hookers may get rich, but other non-CSW Americans won't.

Health Care System has failed. Just watch Michael Moore's "Sicko" if you don't believe me.

So my question is, all this "pump up the fear" rhetoric the GOPpies are giving us about "being like France," I just gotta say "What in the hell is wrong with THAT?"

The French have Health Care for all, their banks are under much more scrutiny than ours, unemployment insurance is guaranteed and not such a hassle to get, and they educate your kids from Pre-School to Grad School for free. Yeah, that sure sounds like the suck

So let's nationalize BofA - let's nationalize the oil companies (sorry Dick and Bush) - lets nationalize the school system, or at least kick out the private ones, and the health care industry. Single payer buddy, and if you don't like that, Somalia is always open to new residents. You'll like that whole "no government" thing they're doing over there.

Err... um... I wasn't thinkin' "France".

Unless its the France of 1793... or 1870.

http://openesf.net/projects/esf-activists-news-network/project-home/companiera-paris-commune.jpg


I liked comment 21, the guy with the Ginsburg avatar who is quick to unironically point out that France still has rich people. But wait a few months and that might change..

Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies
...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.

-anaxarchos



That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.



Hey, if it ain't the time now, it'd be a good dry run...I gotta get a computer with a working disc drive and I'll start making handbills again (a working printer would help...)...I was already told not to leave fliers on my desktop at work so that options out... big brother dontcha know...Maybe I'll do the public library, those people are heroes at keeping your privacy safe... I think its a good idea, if I wasn't clear!

EDITed to add: basically Civil Society takes the place of religion. Instead of being all God's children everyone is "equal under the Law"



Good point for libertarians...
On a tangent:
I think TV has taken the place of religion for most of the people: sports, icons, "opium" to kill the pain of what's goin' on...while getting that good dose of subliminal propaganda...

Yeah it was midnight when I finally saw you on, but I will summarize for now. I was reading your "close-a-clysm" and then I accidentally clicked on a link at DU and it turned out to be a thread about marijuana busts.

What I am thinking is that traditional liberalism is really the nexus that everything still revolves around, and the marijuana thread is the perfect case in point.

The gist was posters asking "Why is it criminal to grow/produce/transport if it is legal in some cases?" Basically arguing about the law and enforcement and the institutions that "safeguard" it. That is classsic traditional liberalism (which I am trying, maybe in vain, to distinguish from its modern incarnation..but half of my point is that they are not so distant from each other to start with)

It starts, of course, with "civili society" and contract law and definitions and establishment of sovreignty. Marx is very good on this btw, as he discusses political "freedom" in the form of liberal "rights" which are in reality protections of one from another, ie a division between men grounded on the premise that each is threatened by all others. Its a form of individuation that may offer varying benefit depending on your perspective, but is indisputably very beneficial and maybe even integral to bourgeoisie merchant society.

Its really a libertarian argument of freedom through non-interference and separation except in narrowly defined channels of interaction (exchange relations, codification of laws and so on)

Look at how they define and internalize the conception of the State on DU, something that is implicit in almost literally every discussion there -- it is really just shorthand for private property, rights of claim, establishment of sovreignty, enforcement vehicle, mechanisms for representation, the "will" of the people, and so on

EDITed to add: basically Civil Society takes the place of religion. Instead of being all God's children everyone is "equal under the Law"

Without mish-mashing terms, its all very "conservative" in practice: the entire debate centers around which procedures and which laws we should all agree upon and institutionalize so as to best preserve and implement the "rules". Very "rule of law" centric. If you think about it, this is also the prescription followed by most "Marxists", eh? This is what M Pyre -- and s/he is representative -- wanted to talk about at the expense of everything else

Partially I am on this kick because I've been thinking about Aristotle recently. All of the above was, for lack of a better term, alien to him. For him, all were in agreement because the polis was a cooperative enterprise in the first place. The simplicity is startling. Hegel follows Aristotle, and expands the polity into civil society (not the liberal definition) and then comes Marx.

Rousseau enters the picture as well, because he most directly connects this up with the that favorite modern liberal past time of "opinion". To him, all opinion is in a sense "false". To begin with opinion is in opposition to the classical pursuit of knowledge (philsophy) because it is so obviously and directly counterposed to the search for capital-T Truth.

But more than this it is an artefact of bourgeoisie society and socialization. It is neither legitimate inspection (ie scientific) nor is it introspection (ie self-examination) since it is so bound up with the trappings of the society that produces it. It is also not a dialogue (or dialectic) as it was understood in antiquity since there is no aim to collaborate or even to produce the most excellent final result. In this context it is understood as, at bottom, anti-intellectual

Like I said, I am more working over ideas than trying to present somthing finalized. Just seems to me that what we're seeing now is not so far removed from Locke and Hobbes let alone Rawls, Habermas, Arendt et cetera

EDIT: sorry if this is too stream-of-conscious or not clear


It is "closecasm" lol.

You are on a good track here. Giving it some thought.

EDITed to add: basically Civil Society takes the place of religion. Instead of being all God's children everyone is "equal under the Law"



Good point for libertarians...
On a tangent:
I think TV has taken the place of religion for most of the people: sports, icons, "opium" to kill the pain of what's goin' on...while getting that good dose of subliminal propaganda...


I have been trying to avoid these types of glib or casual offhand remarks and so I sorta wish I could take that one back. All I wanted to convey was that one of religion's function was as a great equalizing force albeit not in a practical way

I do not wish to say that religion as a whole has been superceded -- in fact I don't want to make any comment on religion as a whole

But no, I don't think TV is remotely the same thing other than by way of extremely strained analogy. The opiate remark from Marx is not necessarily the place to start on what he thought of religion either.

That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.




Now is always the time.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5016383


Republican Francophobia or Why the hell DON'T we just go to Socialism?

Face it, our banks have failed and they can't be trusted to run themselves. For every bailout check we send them, the hookers may get rich, but other non-CSW Americans won't.

Health Care System has failed. Just watch Michael Moore's "Sicko" if you don't believe me.

So my question is, all this "pump up the fear" rhetoric the GOPpies are giving us about "being like France," I just gotta say "What in the hell is wrong with THAT?"

The French have Health Care for all, their banks are under much more scrutiny than ours, unemployment insurance is guaranteed and not such a hassle to get, and they educate your kids from Pre-School to Grad School for free. Yeah, that sure sounds like the suck

So let's nationalize BofA - let's nationalize the oil companies (sorry Dick and Bush) - lets nationalize the school system, or at least kick out the private ones, and the health care industry. Single payer buddy, and if you don't like that, Somalia is always open to new residents. You'll like that whole "no government" thing they're doing over there.

Err... um... I wasn't thinkin' "France".

Unless its the France of 1793... or 1870.

http://openesf.net/projects/esf-activists-news-network/project-home/companiera-paris-commune.jpg


Something seems odd over there, all of a sudden 'everybody' is a 'socialist'. The above poster is a Lounge regular and I've never noted a leftists strain from that direction. Quite a few others like that, some talkin' pretty loosely. Events are of course to be taken into account but it feels more like a fad in 'salon' society. Red cockades are in style.

EDITed to add: basically Civil Society takes the place of religion. Instead of being all God's children everyone is "equal under the Law"



Good point for libertarians...
On a tangent:
I think TV has taken the place of religion for most of the people: sports, icons, "opium" to kill the pain of what's goin' on...while getting that good dose of subliminal propaganda...


I have been trying to avoid these types of glib or casual offhand remarks and so I sorta wish I could take that one back. All I wanted to convey was that one of religion's function was as a great equalizing force albeit not in a practical way

I do not wish to say that religion as a whole has been superceded -- in fact I don't want to make any comment on religion as a whole

But no, I don't think TV is remotely the same thing other than by way of extremely strained analogy. The opiate remark from Marx is not necessarily the place to start on what he thought of religion either.


Didn't mean to be glib myself, I honestly do believe that tv has taken the place of religion for many people, and it is for avoidance of reality and to soothe and alleviate pain; also to create a place for vicarious emotions. And as religion has always served as a propaganda machine, so to the parallel fits. Just my two bits worth...

Something seems odd over there, all of a sudden 'everybody' is a 'socialist'. The above poster is a Lounge regular and I've never noted a leftists strain from that direction. Quite a few others like that, some talkin' pretty loosely. Events are of course to be taken into account but it feels more like a fad in 'salon' society. Red cockades are in style.

Could be political operatives raising the specter of having to deal with the real leftists if they don't get their bill passed. After the bill is passed we'll see who is still talking about genuine systemic change.

That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.




Now is always the time.


Thats what I meant to say...tend to long winded around the bush shit...Really, lets get these handbills written...

Something seems odd over there, all of a sudden 'everybody' is a 'socialist'. The above poster is a Lounge regular and I've never noted a leftists strain from that direction. Quite a few others like that, some talkin' pretty loosely. Events are of course to be taken into account but it feels more like a fad in 'salon' society. Red cockades are in style.

Could be political operatives raising the specter of having to deal with the real leftists if they don't get their bill passed. After the bill is passed we'll see who is still talking about genuine systemic change.


There are an awful lot of actual "paid agents" of the campaigns and others at DU, as you say. It appears the boards have become yet another outlet for political marketing. I wonder if it is cost efficient...

Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies
...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.

-anaxarchos



That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.



Hey, if it ain't the time now, it'd be a good dry run...I gotta get a computer with a working disc drive and I'll start making handbills again (a working printer would help...)...I was already told not to leave fliers on my desktop at work so that options out... big brother dontcha know...Maybe I'll do the public library, those people are heroes at keeping your privacy safe... I think its a good idea, if I wasn't clear!


The above is a little too flip... Let me see if I can improve on it a little (do a short explanation of the points).

Gotta whistle while you work. Put on a happy face. Don't worry, be happy. Walk on sunshine.

Also, nationalize the banks...

...and the defense industries
...and the energy companies
...and the "health" companies...and use the trillion bucks to give a job to all 20 million unemployed (at $50,000 per person) tomorrow and decide what they should build later (next week)
...and dismantle 90% of the Defense budget and 100% of the intelligence agencies
...and let those three million people out of jail (and let real criminals take their place)
...and do something about this corrupt-as-hell-cynical-beyond-redemption political "system"
...and guarantee everybody a job, health-care, security in old age and disability, food, shelter

...and send all yuppies to "re-education" - perhaps as welders.

-anaxarchos



That would make the basis for a pamphlet or should be included in the 'Doing What It Takes' pamphlet.

Enough of this internet nattering with these fuckbubbles, who cares what they think. Fun's fun but serves little purpose. Let's take it to the people, to the streets.

More I think abut it, a new pamphlet, the above, some spot on raving, a distillation of that unemployment graphic , other pertinent material, something regular folks can read and say 'Yes!'.

Mebbe now's the time, proly ain't but ya just never know.



Hey, if it ain't the time now, it'd be a good dry run...I gotta get a computer with a working disc drive and I'll start making handbills again (a working printer would help...)...I was already told not to leave fliers on my desktop at work so that options out... big brother dontcha know...Maybe I'll do the public library, those people are heroes at keeping your privacy safe... I think its a good idea, if I wasn't clear!


The above is a little too flip... Let me see if I can improve on it a little (do a short explanation of the points).



While waiting, I'll be plotting how to beat big brother and print out the results...

There are an awful lot of actual "paid agents" of the campaigns and others at DU, as you say. It appears the boards have become yet another outlet for political marketing. I wonder if it is cost efficient...



Sure it is. Sure it is. That is why the ones doing it always say that it doesn't make any difference.

We have thousands of people who are so confused and intimidated that you can barely talk to them. Ten paid shills can cause that. That is amazingly efficient.

The very fact that we aren't sure if there are paid shills and aren't sure whether or not that would be cost effective is itself a product of their effectiveness.

That was the benefit of doing a little work on the campaign early on and seeing these people in action. The kids were always on their laptops, and they didn't sleep. BP isn't exaggerating when he makes comments about the little fascists being created. They eat, sleep, and breathe Obama. Certain phrasings they repeat over and over... it's easy to see them at work on DU. Not that they are all interns - I believe there are some pretty well compensated (experienced) folks at work over there as well.