While America falls apart and it's people become more and more enslaved with Debt and Repression why does the USA continue to spend well over 1 trillion dollars on The military and associated organizations such as the CIA, NSA,Homeland Security, The war on Drugs, the Correctional System,The FBI,ATF,etc?

Why is so much of our Economy based on Imprisoning people, Controlling People,Spying on People and Waging War on People?

No wonder our economy is weak, we are not a free people and the country is in shambles, does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Why is there also so much Foreign Influence in these Organizations such as Wackinhut which is a Dutch Company controlling so much of the Private Prison System in the USA.

Why here in Florida have I seen Euro-Fighters and Mirages flying over my house and then Land at Macdill Airforce base-one of the nations strike Commands?

Why is more and more of the parts and even entire projects for the military foreign produced?

Boeing is 70% foreign made, most of the wings are made in Japan for example.

The Joint Strike Fighter is partially foreign Produced.

Same goes for much of our Electronics and other high tech systems.

Airbus is trying to build the new Tankers for the Airforce.

Etc, Etc-many projects and parts.

Why are foreign Generals like the French and Germans allowed into our Strike Commands? I would be shot at the gate if I attempted to enter and I'm a tax-paying USA citizen.

Could a Creditor Nations like Germany and others have influence? Obviously!!!

What do you all think?

Invented by the profiteering ruling class to make it easier to divide the spoils.

National flags, national anthems, all giant mind games.

I mean, why worry about French dudes on US airbases when the "B" in your local BP Petroleum gas station stood for "British" all along?

I watched an interview with Putin and he was going on about his fascination with the rise of the US as a superpower in such a short time, and the acquiescence of the citizenry to all imperial endeavors, and so forth.

Essentially it was nationalism. We're #1!

Oh, and if I ran the world I'd abolish the term "foreign."
It's very anti-working class.

Patriotism/nationalism/rascism are great tools for dividing and conquering the people.

RWS for world leader! ;)

that Marx wrote "Proletarians of All Countries, Unite!" and not "Proletarians of the World"

The idea of the State and nations as a dividing and regression force was well-understood and discussed (arguably TOO well understood..eg anarchists..if you get the joke)

for Marx, allow the people to admit to a country but see their connection to others of the world by uniting with them, thus, in essence, disconnecting from their country...first step to not being nationalistic...

could you please explain the joke? I admit I don't get it? (I always tell my students that they should ask or admit when they don't understand as probably many others don't and are too shy to admit it...guess I better practice what I preach! :) )

the anarchists were against the State..so they wanted to abolish it, RIGHT NOW. I will find the passage where Marx mocks this (there are several I think) if you want, but the point was that

a. the State can not be overthrown by petualance or want-to -- it exists becaue of determinate social relations that form the backbone of its existence and establish the NEED for its existence

b. in a sense the abolition of the State has to go through a period where the tables are turned -- the violence of the State (redundant) is turned against those who wreak violence

That is why the phrase used is that the State "withers away" -- as relations of men change, so too do the accompanying institutions and eventually Man's political activities are no longer expressed through the repression of the State (and that "repression" runs far deeper than merely asking Is it Democratic or Totalitarian?)

c. related to b above, overthrowing the State -- understood as a Revolution -- is sort of pointless if it can't be defended. As the State is partly understoof as the collective organization of arms for the purposes of defense, you can probably see the built-in contradiction

The "joke" is a bit protracted, I admit

if "the State is understood as the collective organization of arms for the purpose of defense" then the ruling elite uses the "State"(s) as a means to perpetuate their purposes...

and its a little hard to decipher but what you write is basically correct if a bit roundabout.. But in terms of "State" anarchists were against any such institution, seeing as they did such eternal concepts "hierarchy" and "authoritarianims" omni-present therein. That was part of Marx's criticism as well -- in the very criticisms brought against the State it was almost implicitly assumed that it was an endearing ahistorical entity that existed outside of a certain time, space, and circumstance. Now how can you overthrow that?

I will tell you something else that is kosher if not exactly on the same subject. There is a strain in most of your writing that suggests that some group of elites conspiratorially work together to advance their private agendas. There are no such agendas, except incidental ones; the only agenda is the expansion and perpetuation of capital.

Its not a group thing, its a class thing which includes the bourgeoisie as a class. The State is a large part of the apparatus of advancing that agenda, but the ruling elite are only bit players who fill prescribed roles. Sure they can ad lib, but they're actors not writers, to strain an analogy.

Its something to keep in mind, because the shadowy overtones you can read into things often aren't really what you think they are.

As Marx said (I'm on a kick here): the educator forgets that he too must be educated.

EDIT: and I'm not saying there aren't all sorts of underhanded and devious activities of elites in the world, that is obvious. But connect them together as one "plot" and you're in NWO territory.

And, besides, you're definitely not flying solo: some of it is merely perfectly justified hyperbole and some of it seems on the surface to be inescapablly true. And some of it is a drumbeat of rhetoric that is hard to dismiss out of hand (see: Chlamor, ha)

Its more like: the ideas of the ruling class are ever the ruling ideas of society..but this is a far cry from saying that some mastermind dreamt them up of whole cloth and that the ruling class works nefariously to propogate those ideas for their own ends. Its much more entrenched, much more inexorable than only that.

Sorry, I'm going on too long here..

when looking at things, where's the profit, where's the control!...don't mean to imply any NWO conspiracy...I'll keep an eye out for that.

I never find you too long winded, btw, just too cryptic at times!
:)

Oh and, my god, if anyone needs an education its me! My education was in making and teaching visual art and art history; lots of good visual propaganda from the ruling elite going way back, just starting to really, really see that! You should look at the medieval art for how the church controlled its interests when they were the main ruling elite in Europe...

Visually the propaganda is getting even more rife...

Other than that I am a perennial student, and consider you to be one of my primary teachers! Just don't let this give you a big head, Master Kid! :)

Nationalism means putting up walls for workers, while capitalists are free to move as if those those walls didn't exist. If one group - the wealthy - is free to move, and the other - workers - is not, it places the restricted group, the workers at a fatal disadvantage.

What you are saying here is important, and well said. I wish that it wouldn't get glossed over. I am not sure that people understand what you are saying, because even though it has been said many times in various ways, in later discussions it again becomes obvious that people are missing this point. I don't know how it could be said more clearly or understandabaly.

Nah, thats not what the quote is saying I don't think. Sometimes Marx would rather turn a phrase at the expense of his exact meaning, however its pretty clear here he means more like: if everything is booge propaganda and its totally impenetrable, then how did YOU see through it ;)? Thats like the reverse way of saying it is all: if you know something then it was probably taught to you being the positive expression

It goes back to the same point that the ruling ideas aren't just arbitrarily invented by the rulers anymore than our ideas our concocted in our heads in a vacuum. Was especially thinking about the idea that education is being co-opted and all knowledge of history being shunted down the memory hole and so on. And I don't necessarily disagree with the conclusion, either, just that I think it is a product of bourgeoisie society to educate (indoctrinate) in the way that they do. Part of that thought process is absolving history as an agent in the present and proferring no future other than the present redux..End of History y'know..

Me, a teacher? Thats just..kooky talk :D

So Nation States are a tool/Construct of the Elites around the world-True.
Patriotism, Religion,Fear,Propaganda all tools also to misled the citizens of Society but why are there differences around the Globe even among the Western World or Most Advanced Nation States when it comes to Government and Society?
Why does one Society have Universal Health Care or Education, Lower Prison Populations, etc,etc. while another Country like the USA does not have the same Rights and Standards?
Could it be that places like Europe went through a Terrible War(World War 2) and other Elite Produced Disasters that educated the populace on who their real enemy is?
World War 2 was the Root Cause of the New European Deal in 1950, a European Economic/Social Model that was less Tyrannical in Nature and much more Democratic only to Export some of the more Fascist Ideas to the USA at the time. In 1955 the USA Replaced Great Britain/France as the Global Police for the Elites and so the American People had to be Brain-washed into becoming the New Empire and Reducing what FDR had started. No New Deal Social leanings could be allowed in the USA after 1955 because it took a Great deal of wealth and manpower to try and counter the Soviets-They could not afford both the Empire and a strong European Model and the people could not be allowed to know that was happening at the time. They used Fear, Religion, Race, Class-Warfare and the like to control the masses here while they waged the Cold and Hot War against the Bankers Rival-THe Soviets.
The Elites still Propt up the USA, even many Common Folks Benefited for awhile and had a good stand of living but this is was only temporary.
The USA was the Greatest Oil Producer, The only undamaged Country emerging from World War 2,Half of the world's Manufacturing and The Soviet Threat all played into the Common well-being(Average non-military citizens) until the mid-1970's when the tide turned and the Soviets Economy began to Fail, Oil Producion Peaked, Japan and Germany Caught the USA Economically,etc.

Common People Still have a Say in the World, Yes places like Germany are still controlled by Bankers but the Common People have many benefits and Rights that Americans do not have.

A German Told me a few years ago that the Elites in Germany Realized after the War that in order for them to keep their Empires and not start Wars and internal revolutions they must give something back to the people. In order to keep what they have, they must give some of their wealth back, this is the only sustainable method by not doing so it leads to Social Revolutions like in the Soviet Union.

ALso with the European Union Formation over the past 15 years the Nation State is starting to Fade, at least in Europe and several other countries or parts of countries like Quebec wants to join the EU.
This is a first in Human History, what is going on in Europe is the Destruction of the traditional Nation State and the Start of a World Governance which could be Good or Bad.
Europe Invented the Nation State!

ALso Europe is starting to Transform themselves into a Renewable/sustainable model that has not existed before on this planet, this would be a stage two Civilization, no longer just powering themselves with OIl and coal but using the Suns energy and other Technologies to power Civilization.

The Next Stage after this could be a Fusion-Powered Civilization,etc.
As the Energy Regime changes so it changes everything throughout a Society.
Politically and Economically Europe is taking a new Direction.

Energy Regimes have a large say in Politics, Oil is a Dictatorship, when Renewable Energy or Fusion or even more advanced Energy Regimes are Created it also changes the whole structure of Society, more Enlightened.

Germany Workers can Work in all European Countries, Australia, New Zealand and Canada they have agreements worked out just last month Quebec and France signed agreements for the Free Movement of Workers(skilled)between the two and since France is part of the EU-Any Skilled EU Workers can move.

Remember many of these Countries have extensive Welfare Safety nets, Free Education, Free Health Care,etc so someone who wants to take a shot and moving-can!!

Germany sometime will pay Eastern German Regional Citizens in small Towns to move to other parts of Germany, Europe or out of Europe. They will pay a years salary and moving Expenses, locate a Job and help the person move, one person I know moved to Australia with this system after living in a Small Eastern Germany border town, they still are German Citizens but they have the choice to move if they want.

German College Students can do their Practicum up to 2 years in a Foreign country in many areas of the world, the Government helps pay expenses and the foreign University Study is still free! They will also help locate work in the host country if needed.

Only a few examples if one lives in a Creditor Nation things are a little different then debtors, not one person here wants to touch this subject! Why??

My Friend in Essen is actually Russian and moved to Germany to live and work.
Here Brother also moved from the Ukraine to Live in Germany and her Sister moved from Isreal to Germany this year to live since the standard of living is higher in Germany then Isreal now.

Americans have a hard time moving around because- THey are in Debt, do not have Free health care, Free Tuition, Government does not support them with Welfare and Safety Nets, Etc.

Also they do not know a things about what reality is outside these border or even inside. WE live in a Bubble and are one of the most Repressed Societies in the World and very uninformed about things.

America is a Debtor Nation, Understand????
And America is Far from the Freest- Understand????

Eures is the jobs portal for European Workers and has phone numbers and Email Addresses for Advisors that will Help Europeans Relocate throughout Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada.

See unlike in the States where your local Unemployment office won't even help someone find a job in another city(most of the Time), let along another US State, in Europe they are more Networked and help their people!

Hell in the USA the Unemployment office is a Joke.

Look Eures up and look over the website.

very good, I think.

it happens when one learns from what another says, that other being an arbitrary teacher, ya kook!

(Interesting food for thought, may not respond here but once digested will come out somewhere)

Got it.

In some corporate fiefdoms the Owners feel they need to "compensate" the workers in certain ways in order to insure productivity and profits. In other fiefdoms the Owners feel that a different level or type of "compensation" is required. The workers in different parts of the world require different kinds of compensation and control mechanisms. You can see the same thing, in microcosm, in individual businesses - one will have a certain type of environment and compensation package for its workers and another will have a different one. It is all for the continued control and management on behave of the Owners. The US is just a fiefdom like Egypt, Nigeria, India, Germany, UK, Sweden and on and on.

What you seem to be saying is that you would like for the Owners in Europe to be our Owners, over here. Many of them are the same Owners, they just deal with different work forces in different ways. Sure, the more "enlightened" the Owner, the "better off" the worker is, but the relationship is the same...

It may well be that the more "enlightened" the Owner, the "better off" the worker is, but more importantly the more the owners fear the workers the better off the worker is, and in Europe it is more the latter than the former.

its just that once there is a commitment in place as to meeting certain social obligations, they are very, very hard to roll back. Because they're so popular being the primary reason. But as we're seeing today, when push comes to shove, they rulers are more interested in rolling them back then they are afraid of "unrest"..maybe that'll change

If one lives in a Creditor Nation they usually have the opportunity to have a good basic standard of living and in many cases can work in other countries,
again look at the Eures Website for jobs.

Americans are stuck because they are in debt, do not have Government Backing in Education, Healthcare, welfare,etc so naturally they cannot move to another country or have great trouble moving.

Many Years ago Americans could move overseas if they desired and some did, the US dollar was King and it bought them a Kings lifestyle in most places of the world.
US Corporations Ruled and so they could work overseas with one of these companies or try something solo in Europe or Elsewhere.

How Many American College Students backpacked across Europe in the 1960's and 1970's for example sometimes staying for years?

The USA is in deep trouble and everyone here speaks about Communism, Capitalism, Socialism and everything else but the Core problems and the dire situation the country find itself in and the people who are being indebted and enslaved.

What plan of action will you all take?

Or will it be more bitching about the Capitalists everyday of the year while nothing changes?

Or more bitching from others about the left and the right and the Socialists and this and that.

America does not even Practice Capitalism and the Soviet Union did not practice Communism, they both were frauds.

Again why does America have half the world's debts, 40% of the Correctional Population and such low Social Indicators across the board?

WHy???

Capitalism is in most countries around the world but why is there such differences amoung countries??

Explain please??

IF Capitalism was the only cause of the Destruction of America then the whole world should have the same standards!

Look at the History of American and how they treated the Natives, Blacks, poor working whites,women and it's scary.

IN all reality if people on the board are honest we rank right up with Nazi Germany and Stalanist Russia.

How many People have been Murdered by the American Military and How many Americans have been abused by this system internally since it's founding?

Using Nuclear Weapons on Civilian Target, if Russia did not Develop the same Weapons they would have been next!

The only Country in World History to use Nuclear Weapons!

That says a little about the Mind Set and it's a scary one.

From 1933-1981 America did improve but since that time it has regressed badly.

We were a Creditor Nation, Greatest Manufacturer, Biggest Oil Producer, Largest Farming Nation, best infrastructure, one of the best educated in the world and we were the Check against the Soviets so things improved away from the Horrible Past of the Nation but that ended when the above advantages ended, it's been almost 30 years now since this was anything close to a Democractic/enlightened Society or at least the chance at one.

At the same time they wage wars on 3rd world countries around the globe so while our standards improved they smashed other people's standards.
With the above strengths it need not have been this way but they wanted world dominance but were inept at the game they played and within a few decades all the power that America possessed was pissed away and many people around the world Suffered under the Madness.

While America was an Empire it Improved Internally but at the expense of many other folks around the world, when the Empire ended many of the same tactics waged on the World's weak Nations and people were turned internally on the people here.

If one is truthful, we rank right up there with some of the Worst.

Those who think they are the Freest are the most hopelessly enslaved.

America is a Rigged Game now and has been for awhile.

So what's the plan?????

You say:

The USA is in deep trouble and everyone here speaks about Communism, Capitalism, Socialism and everything else but the Core problems and the dire situation the country find itself in and the people who are being indebted and enslaved.

If you don't see that 'being indebted and enslaved' isn't directly connected to Capitalism then I don't know what else to say...

:shrug:

Does it matter what system you have if the ID takes over and the Animal side of the brain is the only thing that is used.

The Soviets were no better, they could not control the Corruption and many other Civilizations in the past have collapsed because of the Evil Side of Humans, they have not learned to better themselves.

For awhile some Civilizations improve only to forget the lessons learned and they Decline back to Chaos.

BTW, we are animals.

But that then could also be said about every human activity, and we would be unable to talk about anything.

Improvement of human nature is outside the scope of politics and belongs more properly within discussions about religion, I think.

I am not saying that you must discuss politics, rather that if we are going to discuss politics let's stick to the subject. "Evil Side of Humans" and learning to "better themselves" is, as I said, a spiritual matter. Politics deals with improving the conditions within which people live, not in improving the humans themselves.

"Politics deals with improving the conditions within which people live, not in improving the humans themselves."


(You said that to me ages ago and it was a simple yet significant a-ha! moment)

This could be in the "Religion Categroy" if one wants to label it as such like Labeling America as Capitalist when in all reality America never really has pure Capitalism as the Soviets never has Pure Communism.

When looking at Different Civilizations-Rome, Soviets, Nazi Germany or America to name a few the Elites of all these "different" Systems wanted to control the people and the world-Is this not a Religion?

Like Going to the Mall has become a Religion for many or Following the Stock Markets in this country the Markets have gained God Status and all else is second.
Another Religion, people worship money as a God or their Master and when people do this no amount of Debating Politics or Religion/Philosphy will improve the Civilization that is so Endlaved my such a myopic view of things.

Democrats and Republicans are the same party and this is in our History if one wants to check it out and go back to the founding of the Republic which died during World War 2 and then became an Empire and the Empire died and now we are becoming a Colony owned by Creditors and we buy into the money/market concept because eveyone thinks that is the way to the promise land only to realize they lied too and abused only too late in the game.

From Slavery to Hope, From Hope to Great Courage, From Great Courage to Freedom, From Freedom to Prosperity, From Prosperity to apathy, from Apathy to Dependence, From Dependence to Ignorance, From Ignorance back to Slavery again.
America is between the Ignorance and Slavery Stage, we are far past the Prosperity or even Dependence Stage of Country or Empire.

After the war of 1776 when one group of elites defeated the other Group of Elites they made Property Ownership the number one item in the Constitution and all else became Second in reality.

They Formed 2 political parties(both Propertied classes) the Democrats/Republicans and the Federalists became the second party. What we have now is just one party the Federalists are gone and this leaves the Democrats/Republicans which where the same party in 1780, if people know their history they realize we have had many attempts to change this Tyranny that was formed in the New World for over 200 years and nothing has changed, the Rich Still control the system while the poor have no say.
IT is a Brilliant system of Control and Deception.

Many other Western and non-western Countries do not have the same system, the average person in some of these Countries do have more "interest" in the workings of Government then in the USA.
In Germany and some other countries you all say they are in the same boat but that is False!

They have 7 Political Parties and more if you count the Political Parties at the local levels.

Cooperatives, Labor Unions, Work Councils also back up the Multiple Party systems and yes the common people have benefited from this set-up even though it is not perfect!

They even have a Communist Party, A Green Party, a Far Right Party, Social Democrats,etc.

They have Corruption too of course but it is not on the scale as in the States where the people are totally abused and discarded like trash.

They have a "interest" to keep the system like it is because they are part owners of it. They have a stake in the country and a Voice unlike in the states!

They No longer Worship Money and the Markets as their Gods, they realize it is very important for thier standard of living but they also know there is a Social,Spiritual,Cultural side to life and the Economy is only part of the equation.

This is why they have Social benefits, Civil Rights, Cleaner Environmental Standards, Better Consumer Protection standards, Better Infrastructure around Germany(High Speed Rail,etc) is because they are not all mentally seperated on their own little boats, Worshiping the almighty Elites and their Markets hoping for the Crumbs to fall from the Table.

When people only have a Mindset to Worship Money and power and they are indebted, Enslaved,imprisoned then they will not be a free people.
They will accept whatever is given to them, be very humble and sheepish and full of fear so they never rebel against the machine that has taken their being and chained them to the post of slavery.

Using "Religion" or the Elites Prescribed brand further enslaves the masses along with the Debts and Prisons which Americans has far more then their fair share of.

America is not Europe, Europe is not Japan, Japan is not China yes the bankers have influence in all but the people and thier Customs are different.

When a Society has deep roots, Customs and Social Beliefs seperate from the Elites then as long as they keep these ideas alive they will not be defeated.

America does not really have much of a Culture, it is not a very old country and the Elites from the 1776 War on never intended the USA to be a Enlightened, Cultured Society, smart people are very hard to control and Culture is a barrier for thier control.

That is why Zen for example never really has been promoted here as a religion much because it would break their mind-control.
For a short period of time in the 1960's and 1970's it was taught among the College students and Free minded but in 1980 that ended.

That is why they always make fun of the French, the French Cultural is old and established with many Social Leanings that the Elite here would never tolerate.

The Japanese are very Sexually liberal as a Cultural and that is another Freedom that the Elites would not want taught.

A few examples of many.

IF one cannot change thier Minds then nothing can be changed.

Everything starts Spiritually and Mentally it is part of Politics not seperate.

After a while you gotta ask if maybe its your definition that is whack

but none of this makes any sense, at all. A lot of your history is wrong; a lot of your conclusions do not stand up, and it is very hard to follow your logic. This country has been an imperialistic enterprise since 1492 (at least). A claim for first war for Empire could arguably be made for the unprovoked invasion of Mexico in the 1846-48 war (I don't like calling it the Mexican American War - ugh). The war for Empire in 1898 and the subsequent genocide in the Philippines cannot be ignored - and this goes on and on.

A lot of what you say is "true", but context and reason has to be applied.

You have a great deal of passion, but you need to think through these things a bid more. All that I wrote above can be argued, but focus is needed first...

This nonsense of comparative systems, what is "pure" this and what is "pure" that, and then associating different countries at different times and comparing those is itself an analysis (and a faulty one that we were all fed in high school and that some have reinforced in their own minds in college) and does not represent any original thinking. Then we get circles, and spectrums, and we assign different locations on these constructs for different words and think we thereby know something.

The standard line spouted by the apologists for the oligarchies in Latin America has now thoroughly permeated the thinking of modern "liberals" and "progressives" (self-described which is why I put the terms in quotation marks. I have no idea what the terms "really" mean or whatever.)

"It is human nature, what can we do, until people are no longer cruel and greedy nothing will ever change." This is a cowardly evasion, a way that people who are sympathetic to the upper class can still fool themselves that they "care" about the poor and the victims of the bombings, the round ups, the detention and the torture, the destruction of communities and the environment.

These silly ideas about "elites" and "mind control" are a product of watching too much Hollywood bullshit or reading too much sci-fi and looking to those as sources for understanding the world. Geez that crap is as out of touch with reality as the most extreme forms of religious fundamentalism.

People have better benefits and working and living conditions in Europe because they fought for them, not because they have evolved spiritually.

Ironically, it is only those who have benefited from the struggles of those who went before them who have the luxury now of sitting around musing about Zen and spiritual values and elites and mind control and such.

Without some sort of ideas about Right and Wrong, Where does the Human Race Head?
Or Maybe the Right Balance of Life between Nature, Enlightened Ideas and the Id which is a part of all people.
Explain to me why since the Beginning of Human History we have had problems around the World?
We have periods of relative stability and some Enlightened thought/ideas mixed with other time periods of outright insanity.
It goes beyond Capitalism and I do not Defend "Capitalism at all", but we could Destroy Capitalism tomorrow and the world may still have a Preditory Mentality.

At the present time it is Capitalism which is being used for Destruction but we could go and use another System, like Soviet Russia only to realize we have replaced one Tyranny with another.

The people themselves must evolve or have the sense of Enlightened thought and behavior is not just the Governmental or Economic end. They must be taught and then hopefully they will accept the teachings or accept a more balanced way of life such as in Zen teachings or living with Natural and living a Balanced life.

For all the wars the Human Race as fought we still come back to the same problems sooner or later. We could kill all the Elites tomorrow and would the world truely be free finally of Hate and Insanity? Perhaps it would buy us a little time but 50 years later would we not have the same problems once new leaders or Tyrants gain power and start the process again.

They Killed the Czar and many Russian Elites in the 1917 Revolution only to replace it with another Tyranny.

Any lasting Solution will come from the People themselves and their mindsets not just Governments or Words.

And just like Russia had one Communist Party, We here in America have one Capitalist Party called the Democratic/Republican Party and this Party has been in Existence since the Constitution was Ratified.

And Yes even before this was a Country, they Colonized the Area from Europe and Killed/Enslaved the Natives.

Yes America has always been a Elitist Construct and it grew into a large Nation and then an Empire and then it declined back into a Colony again.

It has always been a place for Elite power and everything else was second, for a short period of time when the United States was a Empire/Creditor some major Benefits we bestowed on many of the Citizens(yes they fought for these rights but if it were a indebted colony at the time the people would not have gained anything)
This is the facts!
Just like the Natives were enslaved or Killed so they would enslave or Kill anyone they could if it met their objectives.

The Political System has been rigged since the beginning and they used Religion, Patriotism and Fear to Control the Masses and their "Minds"!

And going to the Mall, Worshipping the Market or Worshipping Authority can become a Religion!

And sometimes a Strong Culture can buffer the Common People against the Rich or perhaps better stated mold the Society into a more Enlightened Society.
IF all you have is a Consumer Nation that Worships Authority and Elites then the country has no chance in developing into something better.

If the people think that everyone is on their own little boats and have no power, are in fear, indebted, imprisoned then they will always accept everything that is dished to them. THey will hope for the best and accept the Punishment bestowed on them.

This is why in a place like the Netherlands for example the Common People have Economic and Social Rights. They do have a Culture, it is older then the USA and they have carved out a more Enlightened Way of living both Environmentally, Socially and Economically.

They have their Enlightend People and People Ruled by the Id.

Or some of the Native Tribes who lived in Peace and Harmony with Nature.

So the Id has been tamed or they have learned to live with the Dragon.

Will they keep it? I don't know!

The Natives didn't.

It is not Something you gain and then just forget because it is a struggle to keep what one has won or Built or learned. Nothing is forever people must keep a vigilance against the Id.

Don't know what to tell you.

It seems to me to be an exceptionally ignorant reading of history to say that nothing has ever changed and that things never can.

If it all awaits some mystical and spiritual improvement of human nature, then that is not politics. You seek spiritual enlightenment, not only for yourself but for other as well. I would say that politics is the wrong place to look for that, and I would also say that people are going to resent your attempts at reforming them.

I don't know the ultimate meaning of life nor the answer to the question "who are we" and don't look for those in politics.

Again, people on the Netherlands and elsewhere have "Economic and Social Rights" because they fought for them, not because they achieved spiritual enlightenment.

The culture here in the US is just as old as the culture in the Old World. Where do you think it came from?


...

More metaphysical self improvement nonsense, navel gazing while the world burns. This ain't politics, it is anti-politics, excuses for inaction. It's fine if you want to believe these sort of things, but presenting them as political analysis is inappropriate as they have nothing to do with improving the condition of people in the here and now, the material world.

What a waste of time.
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The Majority of Americans belong to a Consumer Culture and live in a Bubble.
Post 1980's Culture.
When The English Elites set up this Country and wrote the Constitution it stated property was above all else. Not every country has that in thier Government Creed.
We are Europeans by Blood Line but not in Culture. WE do not have a European Culture, it faded about 30-40 years ago when the place started to turn Fascist.
After World War 2 many European Scientists, Engineers,Teachers and people of all walks of European Life came to the States because of the Destruction in Europe, this had a profound effect on American Culture for about 30 years. The European Elites put their money here and because so many Europeans migrated at the time to the USA it Greatly influenced the Society and yes we became closely aligned with some European Traditions. Also during the the late 1800's-1920's when Millions of European Immigrated to the US the Culture was infused again with European Ideas-Unions,Clubs,Philosophy,Technical Know-How in certain fields,etc.
But Europeans are not Migrating here in Mass Numbers anymore and have not for many years because their economies,Social Safety Nets and Freedoms surpassed the USA.
After 1975 European Migration slowed to a Trickle and now we have many expats in Europe.

When America was Culturally changed in the early 1980's Europe was looked upon as a joke,has-been,in terminal decline, Morally bankrupt,etc,etc. The Culture here changed to a more Fascist, Elite worshipping-Dictatorship.

When you increase the Correctional Population from 1 million to 8 million that is not European style.

Become Radically Religious and bigoted.

Not Open to other Cultures and Accepting that other people are just as capable as Americans and sometimes more.

When you cut your Social Benefits and Safety Nets this is not European Culture.

When you dumb the majority of the people down to control them this Drifted away from Europe's System.

When one says God bless America, America love it or leave it,America has done everything no one is our equal,etc,etc,etc for 30 years now it became obvious that back in the late 1970's early 1980's they wanted to take America away from any Cultural leaning which would screw with their control.

ANd that's just the facts!!!

How many people here have a Passport?-20%
ANd how many have been to Europe? Maybe 10%
ANd How many have really lived outside these borders or Travel enough to get an idea of how the world really is and experience differing Cultures? A very small minority. When The dollar was king and The country still strong yes many people traveled overseas but that is the past, most Americans are not even taking any Vacation let along going overseas and so since they are enslaved How would they know about European Culture or any other .

The School System, Media, their place of work all Hammer them into nice slaves!

Excluding the Top 15-20% of Citizens here.


We have a European Language we use, some other Traits but as it stands now this ain't Europe.

My Grandparents came from Italy and so I know from experience.

The Italians built West Albany, New York

They Built the Church, The Italian Club, Helped Build the Labor Union and the Labor Hall down the Road from my Father's house,brought their Culture with them-Language,Traditions,Farming and Gardening, Wine making, always helped each other and were "United"!
They helped non-Italians also, had their own Newspaper, spoke about Politics and what really went on in the Neighborhood, The World and tried to change things when they could and did have very powerful impacts on Society.
They helped form a Society which had a strong Social Safety Nets, Close Personal Bonds,A more Just and Egalitarian Society, sometimes they would break the laws actually but in retrospect it actually made the Society freer and more prosperous since the "Elite" Could never put them all in their little boxes and enslave them.
They were a part of a wonderful movement that started in Europe and Migrated over here. Karl Marx and many other like minded people influenced the Politics of Europe at the time and so the Europeans brought these ideas over with them and influenced America.
They were United, Strong, Prosperous,Free and had a Vested Interest in America.

Comparing that Generation to now is like Comparing Apples to Oranges really.

That time has long passed, the European Italians have died and their Third and Forth Generation Families have been "Americanized" for the most part with a few people still knowing what the deal is and trying to live Free and Enlightened.

By Americanized I mean they became Corporate, Elite Worshippers, Market and Money Worshippers and were actually dumbed down, turned into slaves-Indebted, Imprisoned,Striped of their humanity, stripped of their true selves and Forced into a Machine that is neither Human or has any real Freedom what so ever.

America Became an Empire and now is in Steep Decline obviously and has been for 30 years!
So they turned inward and enslaved the folks here in these borders.

Like Constantine in Rome, Enslaving the people totally in the attempt to keep Rome from Collapsing, it did not work in the end but so they do the same thing here.

And you cannot have outside Enlightened, Informative Forces if you want a Slave Society, one must cut the information and limit the contact with these people.

And they have done a very good job on the Majority.

Lack of Vacation, Lack of Money, Lack of Knowledge and Wisdom

Media Propaganda

Radical Religion

Patriotism

Fear

Isolation

Understand????

This line ended even a humorous reading this "stuff": "We are Europeans by Blood Line..." Who is this "we", white man? Unege bastid...

Not all people here are Europeans or European blood of course.

But As I remember after the Natives were kicked out of the box, it was the Europeans(British Descent) which set up shop, No?
What is the main Language?
And Secondly everything I said is accurate, I have experienced European Culture and here in America we do not have their way of living only pieces of their Culture.

After the French Left North America the English were the only major country left here besides the Natives, they destroyed the Native Culture(mostly) and the Geographical Area known as the USA became a British construct, later some British Renegades broke away from the Queen but English they still stayed, they wanted all the treasure for themselves.

Not until the Mass Immigration from Continental Europe in the later 1880's and early 1900's did we have Different cultural infusion(on a mass scale)before they imported slaves and white servants,Chinese,etc but it was still an anglo-construct.

A top-Down model and since we speak English it confirms this country was an Anglo Construct and many other Cultures came later.

When the Italians and others Immigrated into the USA at the same time as Marx and others were popular and the Social Movements in Europe were in full swing they brought these new Radical Ideals or Radical for the Elite here and not only that, they brought their Culture.

That's just the way it is!

WE are all Europeans so was stated above so Bolivia, Peru, Mexico are European also then, Right?
Mostly Spainish Decent so what your trying to tell me is Mexico is the same as Spain?
They have the same language and some customes from Spain but they are not European in the sense of Civil Rights, Economy, Environmental standards,etc.

So Why are they not at Europe's standards?

There European!

No?

Could it be the vast majority of Europeans stopped Migrating many, many moons ago and most Mexicans cannot afford to travel around so where is the Cultural Exchange in the present tense???

If Europeans migrated in Mass Numbers or Japanese in Mass Numbers to Mexico with their Money and knowledge do you think that would have a Positive effect or the potential?

Answer that Truthfully!

Of Course it would.

If We had a Mass migration of Europeans, Japanese or Aussies for example to the USA it would not change the Medical System? THe Economy? The Outlook on things? THe Prison Population? Would they not shape this into thier sytem or their Culture or have a Great Influence on this country?

Of course!!

That is where we got the idea of Social Security from in the 1930's, the Germans had S.S. in 1880, the influence spread here and eventually it took hold.
Slavery was abolished in Europe many, many Years before it was abolished in the states, do you think perhaps European Influence at the time eventually found it's way into the states?

Many, Many other examples of changes when there is an exchange of Ideas between peoples through Migration or Travel.

People bring their Cultures and Ideas if it is Enlightened Ideals then it improves the Country or if it is like Operation PaperClip and you let Nazi Scientists and Engineers along with other SS officiers work for you in your Government then it can turn Ugly.

No?Yes?

If someone comes from a Authoritarian Country and has not concept of Freedom or low self-esteem do you think they will be a Great Well-Spring of Strength or Enlightenment when they arrive in the USA.

Or a Poor Person who has lived in a Dictatorship and really can barely read or write in their own language let alone English arrives in the USA from a Third World Country are they usually going to open thier mouths up and start screaming for Democracy or Enlightenment when they did not do it in their home country?Do they have the Concept of Enlightened thought?
Some Do but most don't and that is why the Corporations love them here!
The country is only as good as it's people-period!

ANd America is a Dictatorship now because the people have some unenlightened ideals.

"Latin" America is almost wholly Native American. The Spanish and the Portuguese never equaled more than about 2-3% of the population during colonial times - they did not colonize in large numbers. There have been subsequent immigration, but still the huge majority of Mexicans and Central and South Americans are non-European. I know this will make no difference to you, because you are here to preach, not discuss. Good luck to you!

I think there is a screenplay in what you are writing.

http://www.reason.com/UserFiles/Image/droot/fountainheadinsert.jpg

:rofl:

So Argentina is entirely Native American?

Argentina was one of the Richest Countries in the world at the Turn of the Century and European money poured into the country along with many Spainish, Italian and other European Settlers.

For a short time in the late 1800's more Europeans Migrated to Argentina then to the USA and they also had a Higher GDP.

When the Great Depression Hit, the whole World Suffered but after the Depression and World War the United States had become the favorite investment haven for European Money and Immigrants so Argentina was abandoned in favor of the USA.

Argentina did not totally collapse but it never again reached it's previous level of wealth. Many Nazis Officers and Party Members fled to Argentina after the War, Helped build up their Economy to a degree(technology Transfers, money transfers) the Argentina Airforce was the most advanced in Latin America in the 1950's because of German Technology Transfers from Nazis officers. Argentina also has Nuclear Power another Transfer of Technology from the past.

Costa Rica also has strong Ties with Europe and is one of the most advanced Latin American Countries and very Environmentally Friendly compared to it's Neighbors.

Many European Ex-pats live and retire in Costa Rica.

When Argentina had their Economic Crisis a few years ago they floated their currency away from the US dollar and Declared Bankruptcy, since that time their economy has been booming so it is now possible that Argentina could once again match it's previous Wealth Levels if Europe continues to invest and trade with them which is what has happened over the past 5 years and they learn how to flush the Corruption out or at least control it.

Argentina is the most developed Latin American Country and the most European of the bunch because of the Cultural Exchange between the two.

This is why Argentina is more advanced then Mexico for example.

Immigration of Europeans and Cultural Exchanges(trade, Technology,etc)

What are we doing here? We're talking to someone who thinks that the colonization of Latin and Central Americas was a Cultural Exchange (and continues to be a positive influence).

Someone who thinks indigenous people can only organize their societies in a good way with the guiding hand of Europeans.

Or this beauty:

"Or a Poor Person who has lived in a Dictatorship and really can barely read or write in their own language let alone English arrives in the USA from a Third World Country are they usually going to open thier mouths up and start screaming for Democracy or Enlightenment when they did not do it in their home country?Do they have the Concept of Enlightened thought?"

Can you say May Day? Know a lot of these ignorant immigrants, does he? This thread is more disgusting than any of the red baiting, New Age, civility ones on this board.

Why are we talking to this guy?

while we have little site admin. This guy has gotten further than the machine in the other thread because he's not outwardly cursing everyone.

but as they say 'give 'em enough rope...'

Completely uninformed, must get information from travel brochures. Costa Rica, what a joke, a classical liberal wet dream. Check out their 'free trade zones', like prisons. Environment, they got some nice parks but 90% of the country is deforested. Expats, can't speak about the Europeans but the American expats I met there were a bunch of troglodyte reactionaries there because they didn't like US taxes. Worst roads in Central America too, can't be taxing the only people with money.

You're right, the cold shoulder.

This is beyond obscene. This is racism writ large. But we have no recourse except concerted action. Let's get the fucker...

http://th08.deviantart.net/fs33/300W/f/2008/312/c/2/Madame_Guillotine_by_ChrisRawlins.jpg

Didn't see the alerts on this one until a few minutes ago.

Latin America was Native American and had it's Cultures well before the Europeans came but when the Spainish and Portuguese along with other Europeans Invaded The Americas most of the Natives were Killed and their Populations Reduced, Replaced with Europeans and later Africans who were used as slave labor?

Haiti is an example I believe where most of the Natives were Killed and replaced with Europeans and Africans.

This has been a Pattern all throughout history when one Culture dies out or is Destroyed a new one arises.

Yes there still is many People with Native Blood in Latin America but also alot of European and African Descendents populate the area.

WE can Disapprove of what the Europeans did but Freedom of speech should never be terminated or ideals ignored.

My European and Native American Roots tell me that we cannot go back and unchange what happened in the past but since we all live here now, everyone should be Equal and speak what they think and feel not be put in a box.

Because French and British Troops and Elites Killed Native Americans, Africans and poor whites does not mean their Descendents should be Persecuted, once that starts your doing the same thing the Elites did and the process begins again.

Be Careful what you rage against, one day it may consume you and you'll become the Monster that you hated so much.

That is a Fact.

Again a Violation of Freedom of Ideas and Speech.
No one should be put in a Box, that's what The Colonial Elites did to the Natives, poor whites and Africans!

That is what Hitler and Company did in the name of Freedom and Democracy in Germany Right Before World War 2.

And so many others have done the same thing.

Be careful of your rage, it may consume you too and you become what you hated!

Pretty hilarious.

Don't waste your time sending me any more e-mails.

I'm one of those racially defective, inferior mischlings and can barely read.

Don't want any "seepage" on this one...

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