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PPLE
10-05-2007, 08:32 PM
A Heritage Foundation speaker discussing the "spider hole" capture of Saddam described him as appearing verifiably like Saddam with this elucidation -

"He looked kinda like John Brown"

Just Sayin'

Kid of the Black Hole
10-05-2007, 09:59 PM
A Heritage Foundation speaker discussing the "spider hole" capture of Saddam described him as appearing verifiably like Saddam with this elucidation -

"He looked kinda like John Brown"

Just Sayin'

Maybe I'm outta it..whos John Brown

(don't bother answering that, I'll just google for it I guess)

I'm guessing cable anchorman or something? (total guess)

EDIT: Ok I give, I'm too lazy to keep looking someone tell me. The best I found was Inspector Gadget who's name in the show is, apparently, John Brown. I know its not the abolitionist nutcase dude..

http://80scartoons.co.uk/inspector/gadget1.jpg

PPLE
10-05-2007, 11:13 PM
Maybe I'm outta it..whos John Brown

I'll leave your big target azz hangin' out there for our friend anax.

Kid of the Black Hole
10-05-2007, 11:21 PM
Maybe I'm outta it..whos John Brown

I'll leave your big target azz hangin' out there for our friend anax.

Wow, I was asking based on the assumption that no one would namedrop someone that "obscure"..I stand corrected I guess.

Two Americas
10-05-2007, 11:57 PM
"John Brown's body lays a-mouldering in the grave..."

John Brown

Of all the sons and daughters ever born on Connecticut soil, perhaps no one has exerted a more profound impact on the nation’s history than John Brown. Born high atop the scenic hills of Torrington on May 9, 1800, the future abolitionist spent the first years of his life imbibing the stern rigors of his father’s old-line Calvinism. Though he soon moved west and for years was plagued by a series of disastrous business ventures, he never abandoned his faith. Indeed, emerging from the 2nd Great Awakening of the early decades of the 19th century as an evangelical Protestant, he eventually dedicated his life to eradicating what he deemed to be American’s greatest sin – the enslavement of human beings.

Enlisting in the burgeoning abolitionist crusade of the 1830s, Brown initially hoped that slave owners might see the error of their ways through “moral suasion.” Still, like many other abolitionists, he warned that if southerners failed to emancipate their slaves voluntarily, an angry God would reap His revenge against the nation via a bloody civil war.

When his plans to distribute guns to slaves to launch a guerrilla war failed, he was captured, tried, convicted of treason, and sentenced to death. Interestingly, Brown seemed to relish his notoriety and perhaps understood that his martyrdom might well bring the nation closer to a civil war that could end in the demise of slavery. At any rate, what is certain is that Brown’s daring actions sent shock waves throughout the country. In the North, he was hailed by many as a hero and Ralph Waldo Emerson predicted that Brown “would make the gallows as glorious as the cross.” In the South, however, he was viewed by most as a typical abolitionist who wanted nothing less than a major slave insurrection. In all, John Brown was indeed “the meteor” who succeeded in polarizing emotions and elevating southern anxieties into a “crisis of fear” that set the stage for the impending Civil War.

http://compx2.com/ths/imgs/johnBrownPortrait.jpg

John Brown (http://compx2.com/ths/johnBrown.htm)

"I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood..."
John Brown's final public statement

The Last Days of John Brown
By Henry D. Thoreau

John Brown's career for the last six weeks of his life was meteor-like, flashing through the darkness in which we live. I know of nothing so miraculous in our history.

If any person, in a lecture or conversation at that time, cited any ancient example of heroism, such as Cato or Tell or Winkelried, passing over the recent deeds and words of Brown, it was felt by any intelligent audience of Northern men to be tame and inexcusably far-fetched.

For my own part, I commonly attend more to nature than to man, but any affecting human event may blind our eyes to natural objects. I was so absorbed in him as to be surprised whenever I detected the routine of the natural world surviving still, or met persons going about their affairs indifferent. It appeared strange to me that the "little dipper" should be still diving quietly in the river, as of yore; and it suggested that this bird might continue to dive here when Concord should be no more.

I felt that he, a prisoner in the midst of his enemies and under sentence of death, if consulted as to his next step or resource, could answer more wisely than all his countrymen beside. He best understood his position; he contemplated it most calmly. Comparatively, all other men, North and South, were beside themselves. Our thoughts could not revert to any greater or wiser or better man with whom to contrast him, for he, then and there, was above them all. The man this country was about to hang appeared the greatest and best in it.

Years were not required for a revolution of public opinion; days, nay hours, produced marked changes in this case. Fifty who were ready to say, on going into our meeting in honor of him in Concord, that he ought to be hung, would not say it when they came out. They heard his words read; they saw the earnest faces of the congregation; and perhaps they joined at last in singing the hymn in his praise.

The order of instructors was reversed. I heard that one preacher, who at first was shocked and stood aloof, felt obliged at last, after he was hung, to make him the subject of a sermon, in which, to some extent, he eulogized the man, but said that his act was a failure. An influential class-teacher thought it necessary, after the services, to tell his grown-up pupils that at first he thought as the preacher did then, but now he thought that John Brown was right. But it was understood that his pupils were as much ahead of the teacher as he was ahead of the priest; and I know for a certainty that very little boys at home had already asked their parents, in a tone of surprise, why God did not interfere to save him. In each case, the constituted teachers were only half conscious that they were not leading, but being dragged, with some loss of time and

The more conscientious preachers, the Bible men, they who talk about principle, and doing to others as you would that they should do unto you,—how could they fail to recognize him, by far the greatest preacher of them all, with the Bible in his life and in his acts, the embodiment of principle, who actually carried out the golden rule? All whose moral sense had been aroused, who had a calling from on high to preach, sided with him. What confessions he extracted from the cold and conservative! It is remarkable, but on the whole it is well, that it did not prove the occasion for a new sect of Brownites being formed in our midst.

They, whether within the Church or out of it, who adhere to the spirit and let go the letter, and are accordingly called infidel, were as usual foremost to recognize him. Men have been hung in the South before for attempting to rescue slaves, and the North was not much stirred by it. Whence, then, this wonderful difference? We were not so sure of their devotion to principle. We made a subtle distinction, forgot human laws, and did homage to an idea. The North, I mean the living North, was suddenly all transcendental. It went behind the human law, it went behind the apparent failure, and recognized eternal justice and glory. Commonly, men live according to a formula, and are satisfied if the order of law is observed, but in this instance they, to some extent, returned to original perceptions, and there was a slight revival of old religion. They saw that what was called order was confusion, what was called justice, injustice, and that the best was deemed the worst. This attitude suggested a more intelligent and generous spirit than that which actuated our forefathers, and the possibility, in the course of ages, of a revolution in behalf of another and an oppressed people.

Most Northern men, and a few Southern ones, were wonderfully stirred by Brown's behavior and words. They saw and felt that they were heroic and noble, and that there had been nothing quite equal to them in their kind in this country, or in the recent history of the world. But the minority were unmoved by them. They were only surprised and provoked by the attitude of their neighbors. They saw that Brown was brave, and that he believed that he had done right, but they did not detect any further peculiarity in him. Not being accustomed to make fine distinctions, or to appreciate magnanimity, they read his letters and speeches as if they read them not. They were not aware when they approached a heroic statement,—they did not know when they burned. They did not feel that he spoke with authority, and hence they only remembered that the law must be executed. They remembered the old formula, but did not hear the new revelation. The man who does not recognize in Brown's words a wisdom and nobleness, and therefore an authority, superior to our laws, is a modern Democrat. This is the test by which to discover him. He is not willfully but constitutionally blind on this side, and he is consistent with himself. Such has been his past life; no doubt of it. In like manner he has read history and his Bible, and he accepts, or seems to accept, the last only as an established formula, and not because he has been convicted by it. You will not find kindred sentiments in his common-place book, if he has one.

When a noble deed is done, who is likely to appreciate it? They who are noble themselves. I was not surprised that certain of my neighbors spoke of John Brown as an ordinary felon, for who are they? They have either much flesh, or much office, or much coarseness of some kind. They are not ethereal natures in any sense. The dark qualities predominate in them. Several of them are decidedly pachydermatous. I say it in sorrow, not in anger. How can a man behold the light who has no answering inward light? They are true to their sight, but when they look this way they see nothing, they are blind. For the children of the light to contend with them is as if there should be a contest between eagles and owls. Show me a man who feels bitterly toward John Brown, and let me hear what noble verse he can repeat. He'll be as dumb as if his lips were stone.

It is not every man who can be a Christian, even in a very moderate sense, whatever education you give him. It is a matter of constitution and temperament, after all. He may have to be born again many times. I have known many a man who pretended to be a Christian, in whom it was ridiculous, for he had no genius for it. It is not every man who can be a free man, even.

Editors persevered for a good while in saying that Brown was crazy; but at last they said only that it was "a crazy scheme," and the only evidence brought to prove it was that it cost him his life. I have no doubt that if he had gone with five thousand men, liberated a thousand slaves, killed a hundred or two slaveholders, and had as many more killed on his own side, but not lost his own life, these same editors would have called it by a more respectable name. Yet he has been far more successful than that. He has liberated many thousands of slaves, both North and South. They seem to have known nothing about living or dying for a principle. They all called him crazy then; who calls him crazy now?

All through the excitement occasioned by his remarkable attempt and subsequent behavior the Massachusetts legislature, not taking any steps for the defense of her citizens who were likely to be carried to Virginia as witnesses and exposed to the violence of a slaveholding mob, was wholly absorbed in a liquor-agency question, and indulging in poor jokes on the word "extension." Bad spirits occupied their thoughts. I am sure that no statesman up to the occasion could have attended to that question at all at that time,—a very vulgar question to attend to at any time!

When I looked into a liturgy of the Church of England, printed near the end of the last century, in order to find a service applicable to the case of Brown, I found that the only martyr recognized and provided for by it was King Charles the First, an eminent scamp. Of all the inhabitants of England and of the world, he was the only one according to this authority, whom that church had made a martyr and saint of; and for more than a century it had celebrated his martyrdom, so called, by an annual service. What a satire on the Church is that!

Look not to legislatures and churches for your guidance, nor to any soulless incorporated bodies, but to inspirited or inspired ones.

What avail all your scholarly accomplishments and learning, compared with wisdom and manhood? To omit his other behavior, see what a work this comparatively unread and unlettered man wrote within six weeks. Where is our professor of belles-lettres, or of logic and rhetoric, who can write so well? He wrote in prison, not a History of the World, like Raleigh, but an American book which I think will live longer than that. I do not know of such words, uttered under such circumstances, and so copiously withal, in Roman or English or any history. What a variety of themes he touched on in that short space! There are words in that letter to his wife, respecting the education of his daughters, which deserve to be framed and hung over every mantelpiece in the land. Compare this earnest wisdom with that of Poor Richard.

The death of Irving, which at any other time would have attracted universal attention, having occurred while these things were transpiring, went almost unobserved. I shall have to read of it in the biography of authors.

Literary gentlemen, editors and critics, think that they know how to write, because they have studied grammar and rhetoric; but they are egregiously mistaken. The art of composition is as simple as the discharge of a bullet from a rifle, and its masterpieces imply an infinitely greater force behind them. This unlettered man's speaking and writing are standard English. Some words and phrases deemed vulgarisms and Americanisms before, he has made standard American; such as "It will pay." It suggests that the one great rule of composition—and if I were a professor of rhetoric, I should insist on this—is, to speak the truth. This first, this second, this third pebbles in your mouth or not. This demands earnestness and manhood chiefly.

We seem to have forgotten that the expression "a liberal education" originally meant among the Romans one worthy of free men; while the learning of trades and professions by which to get your livelihood merely, was considered worthy of slaves only. But taking a hint from the word, I would go a step further and say, that it is not the man of wealth and leisure simply, though devoted to art, or science, or literature, who, in a true sense, is liberally educated, but only the earnest and free man. In a slaveholding country like this, there can be no such thing as a liberal education tolerated by the State; and those scholars of Austria and France who, however learned they may be, are contented under their tyrannies, have received only a servile education.

Nothing could his enemies do but it redounded to his infinite advantage,—that is, to the advantage of his cause. They did not hang him at once, but reserved him to preach to them. And then there was another great blunder. They did not hang his four followers with him; that scene was still postponed; and so his victory was prolonged and completed. No theatrical manager could have arranged things so wisely to give effect to his behavior and words. And who, think you, was the manager? Who placed the slave woman and her child, whom he stooped to kiss for a symbol, between his prison and the gallows?

We soon saw, as he saw, that he was not to be pardoned or rescued by men. That would have been to disarm him, to restore to him a material weapon, a Sharp's rifle, when he had taken up the sword of the spirit,—the sword with which he has really won his greatest and most memorable victories. Now he has not laid aside the sword of the spirit, for he is pure spirit himself, and his sword is pure spirit also.

"He nothing common did or mean
Upon that memorable scene, . . .
Nor called the gods with vulgar spite,
To vindicate his helpless right;
But bowed his comely head
Down, as upon a bed."


What a transit was that of his horizontal body alone, but just cut down from the gallows-tree! We read that at such a time it passed through Philadelphia, and by Saturday night had reached New York. Thus like a meteor it shot through the Union from the Southern regions toward the North! No such freight had the cars borne since they carried him southward alive.

On the day of his translation, I heard, to be sure, that he was hung, but I did not know what that meant; I felt no sorrow on that account; but not for a day or two did I even hear that he was dead, and not after any number of days shall I believe it. Of all the men who were said to be my contemporaries, it seemed to me that John Brown was the only one who had not died. I never hear of a man named Brown now,—and I hear of them pretty often,—I never hear of any particularly brave and earnest man, but my first thought is of John Brown, and what relation he may be to him. I meet him at every turn. He is more alive than ever he was. He has earned immortality. He is not confined to North Elba nor to Kansas. He is no longer working in secret. He works in public, and in the clearest light that shines on this land.

Kid of the Black Hole
10-06-2007, 12:11 AM
. It went behind the human law, it went behind the apparent failure, and recognized eternal justice and glory. Commonly, men live according to a formula, and are satisfied if the order of law is observed, but in this instance they, to some extent, returned to original perceptions, and there was a slight revival of old religion. They saw that what was called order was confusion, what was called justice, injustice, and that the best was deemed the worst. This attitude suggested a more intelligent and generous spirit than that which actuated our forefathers, and the possibility, in the course of ages, of a revolution in behalf of another and an oppressed people.

blindpig
10-06-2007, 08:58 AM
It occurs to me that this is a way that capitalism attempts to escape the trap of ever lowering prices. Instead of beating up each other in the race to the bottom for market share, bringing on inevitable crash, diversification of products creates new markets for capital to expand. Planned obsolescence is another strategy designed to the same purpose. Not to say that the old dynamic is not still in place, just that these strategies buoy up the rotting structure.

So who did ax for those things? How did we survive without them? In the beginning those bag phones were the preserve of self-important business types and professionals. Next the less wealthy but still self-important got them, clearly a status marker. Enormously profitable, production ramped up, markets were expanded by a full press propaganda effort involving direct and indirect means. Now damn near everybody has one, including a significant portion of poor folks, who can least afford them.

This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, just wildly inappropriate for mass use. I can certainly see appropriate uses for the things, emergency workers for example. such it is with much of our technology. It is capitalism which takes useful technology and turns it into genocide and biocide. The internal combustion engine is another example, were it not for the economy of scale, the demands of market, the negative effects of these technologies might be acceptable.

This 25 year old dude, strictly working class, that works with me is always complaining about his bills, enumerates them to me. When I suggest that he get rid of that 2-3 hundred dollar monthly cell bill he looks at me like I'm nuts. He can't imagine life without the goddamn electronic ball & chain.

Kid of the Black Hole
10-06-2007, 04:16 PM
It occurs to me that this is a way that capitalism attempts to escape the trap of ever lowering prices. Instead of beating up each other in the race to the bottom for market share, bringing on inevitable crash, diversification of products creates new markets for capital to expand. Planned obsolescence is another strategy designed to the same purpose. Not to say that the old dynamic is not still in place, just that these strategies buoy up the rotting structure.

So who did ax for those things? How did we survive without them? In the beginning those bag phones were the preserve of self-important business types and professionals. Next the less wealthy but still self-important got them, clearly a status marker. Enormously profitable, production ramped up, markets were expanded by a full press propaganda effort involving direct and indirect means. Now damn near everybody has one, including a significant portion of poor folks, who can least afford them.

This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, just wildly inappropriate for mass use. I can certainly see appropriate uses for the things, emergency workers for example. such it is with much of our technology. It is capitalism which takes useful technology and turns it into genocide and biocide. The internal combustion engine is another example, were it not for the economy of scale, the demands of market, the negative effects of these technologies might be acceptable.

This 25 year old dude, strictly working class, that works with me is always complaining about his bills, enumerates them to me. When I suggest that he get rid of that 2-3 hundred dollar monthly cell bill he looks at me like I'm nuts. He can't imagine life without the goddamn electronic ball & chain.

I don't know BP, you could say the same thing about computers being huge resource sinks -- and by the extension the internet. I agree though that the contracts people seem to blindly accept when it comes to cellphones are ridiculous -- amounts they would swear they couldn't afford for almost anything else.

blindpig
10-06-2007, 08:16 PM
It occurs to me that this is a way that capitalism attempts to escape the trap of ever lowering prices. Instead of beating up each other in the race to the bottom for market share, bringing on inevitable crash, diversification of products creates new markets for capital to expand. Planned obsolescence is another strategy designed to the same purpose. Not to say that the old dynamic is not still in place, just that these strategies buoy up the rotting structure.

So who did ax for those things? How did we survive without them? In the beginning those bag phones were the preserve of self-important business types and professionals. Next the less wealthy but still self-important got them, clearly a status marker. Enormously profitable, production ramped up, markets were expanded by a full press propaganda effort involving direct and indirect means. Now damn near everybody has one, including a significant portion of poor folks, who can least afford them.

This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, just wildly inappropriate for mass use. I can certainly see appropriate uses for the things, emergency workers for example. such it is with much of our technology. It is capitalism which takes useful technology and turns it into genocide and biocide. The internal combustion engine is another example, were it not for the economy of scale, the demands of market, the negative effects of these technologies might be acceptable.

This 25 year old dude, strictly working class, that works with me is always complaining about his bills, enumerates them to me. When I suggest that he get rid of that 2-3 hundred dollar monthly cell bill he looks at me like I'm nuts. He can't imagine life without the goddamn electronic ball & chain.

I don't know BP, you could say the same thing about computers being huge resource sinks -- and by the extension the internet. I agree though that the contracts people seem to blindly accept when it comes to cellphones are ridiculous -- amounts they would swear they couldn't afford for almost anything else.

Well, I might say that. When you consider that most internet bandwidth is choke full of porn and bullshit it makes ya wonder.....Still. it is a unique opportunity for us and many others to communicate, ought not bite the hand that feeds me, I guess.

In the end there is alway the question of who profits, and in this case, how much? Any bets on where the serious bucks are, cell phones or internet service?

Kid of the Black Hole
10-06-2007, 10:06 PM
It occurs to me that this is a way that capitalism attempts to escape the trap of ever lowering prices. Instead of beating up each other in the race to the bottom for market share, bringing on inevitable crash, diversification of products creates new markets for capital to expand. Planned obsolescence is another strategy designed to the same purpose. Not to say that the old dynamic is not still in place, just that these strategies buoy up the rotting structure.

So who did ax for those things? How did we survive without them? In the beginning those bag phones were the preserve of self-important business types and professionals. Next the less wealthy but still self-important got them, clearly a status marker. Enormously profitable, production ramped up, markets were expanded by a full press propaganda effort involving direct and indirect means. Now damn near everybody has one, including a significant portion of poor folks, who can least afford them.

This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, just wildly inappropriate for mass use. I can certainly see appropriate uses for the things, emergency workers for example. such it is with much of our technology. It is capitalism which takes useful technology and turns it into genocide and biocide. The internal combustion engine is another example, were it not for the economy of scale, the demands of market, the negative effects of these technologies might be acceptable.

This 25 year old dude, strictly working class, that works with me is always complaining about his bills, enumerates them to me. When I suggest that he get rid of that 2-3 hundred dollar monthly cell bill he looks at me like I'm nuts. He can't imagine life without the goddamn electronic ball & chain.

I don't know BP, you could say the same thing about computers being huge resource sinks -- and by the extension the internet. I agree though that the contracts people seem to blindly accept when it comes to cellphones are ridiculous -- amounts they would swear they couldn't afford for almost anything else.

Well, I might say that. When you consider that most internet bandwidth is choke full of porn and bullshit it makes ya wonder.....Still. it is a unique opportunity for us and many others to communicate, ought not bite the hand that feeds me, I guess.

In the end there is alway the question of who profits, and in this case, how much? Any bets on where the serious bucks are, cell phones or internet service?

I think the bucks are in computers which you can't have the internet without. I have no idea offhand how the two compare, but telecommunications as a whole is obviously one of THE major players globally.

chlamor
10-06-2007, 11:12 PM
This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, ...

Cellphones are inherently evil. It hasn't anything to do with usage. If you can get around the massive dislocation and appropriations involved in bringing one of these gadgets into being let me know. There's more to the story....

Mary TF
10-07-2007, 08:27 AM
how did the cell phone thing evolve from John Brown? anyway if cell phones had been around and John Brown had one on near him, they would have pinpointed him much more quickly! they are like little honing devices.

blindpig
10-07-2007, 07:39 PM
This is not to say that cell phones are inherently evil, ...

Cellphones are inherently evil. It hasn't anything to do with usage. If you can get around the massive dislocation and appropriations involved in bringing one of these gadgets into being let me know. There's more to the story....

Your point is taken, both the material required and the how and where it is gotten and the fact that the whole shootin' match was concieved as a money maker with attributes considered a bonus by those who dominate us recommends your view. Still, is it not concievable that such devices, perhaps all refurbs, might not have in some limited usage some limited value to society?

For the record, don't own one, wouldn't have one, just more bullshit.

Kid of the Black Hole
10-07-2007, 08:24 PM
how did the cell phone thing evolve from John Brown? anyway if cell phones had been around and John Brown had one on near him, they would have pinpointed him much more quickly! they are like little honing devices.

We were talking about cellphones on a different thread then somebody accidentally posted to this thread instead of that one. We ain't that focused though, so we just rolled with it.