Two Americas
09-02-2009, 10:01 AM
Claiming that people can freely choose slavery is illogical. but it does help illustrate the inherent contradiction in libertarianism. It requires us to ignore circumstances and conditions, and to see everything as "personal choice." People are free to coerce others, and others are "free" to choose to be coerced. The one exception is when it is the evil gubmint doing the coercion. That should be prevented - government equals tyranny, we are to believe. By what means and with what force government should be prevented or restrained is never made clear, nor is it ever made clear just who it is who will be restraining government and therefore be "free."
How do libertarians imagine that they will be able to prevent the formation of governments or what sort of governments are they trying to prevent? They can form paramilitary groups to defend their homesteads from the evil feds and "be free," and then eventually "we the people" - "we" being...? - will be in power instead of those pointy-head bureaucrats and politicians. They then become the defacto government. What sort of government would that be? A government that ignores conditions and that protects the haves - themselves - from the have nots - the rest of us. That means freedom for some, not so much for others.
What is Value?
Re: What is Value?
anaxarchos
09-02-2009, 10:08 AM
...even though you are not wrong.
At its simplest, alienated labor is Capital... wrenched from the laborer and brought back to life as an "alien force"... "alienated" as in removed. 'Course, not just an alien force but an "oppositional one", to use a modern word. More, it is the only part of the workers' labor which survives. The worker consumes wages but Capital survives and grows, to exploit again and again.
Modern parable: a couple of decades ago, a strike occurred at an arms manufacturer in Southern New England. The local police bought police equipment from the manufacturer. The company brought in scabs and there were clashes on the picket line. The workers found themselves at the wrong end of the batons and mace that they themselves had produced just months before.
Now, that is alienated labor...
09-02-2009, 10:08 AM
...even though you are not wrong.
At its simplest, alienated labor is Capital... wrenched from the laborer and brought back to life as an "alien force"... "alienated" as in removed. 'Course, not just an alien force but an "oppositional one", to use a modern word. More, it is the only part of the workers' labor which survives. The worker consumes wages but Capital survives and grows, to exploit again and again.
Modern parable: a couple of decades ago, a strike occurred at an arms manufacturer in Southern New England. The local police bought police equipment from the manufacturer. The company brought in scabs and there were clashes on the picket line. The workers found themselves at the wrong end of the batons and mace that they themselves had produced just months before.
Now, that is alienated labor...
Re: What is Value?
anaxarchos
09-02-2009, 10:29 AM
... assuming that you meant to say Maoist. I know that you have read philosophy so perhaps it was not a typo, but I am hoping it was.
As an old Monist who is working very hard to be a new Monist, I salute you.
Yes, you are very close.
09-02-2009, 10:29 AM
... assuming that you meant to say Maoist. I know that you have read philosophy so perhaps it was not a typo, but I am hoping it was.
As an old Monist who is working very hard to be a new Monist, I salute you.
Yes, you are very close.
Re: What is Value?
Two Americas
09-02-2009, 10:48 AM
You are promoting anti-hierarchyism.
How would we overcome this tendency toward hierarchy? Is this one of those "human nature" challenges? Must human beings be reformed so that they will no longer form hierarchies? What if we were wildly successful at that, and actually converted 99% of the people to this non-hierarchical view? Would not the remaining unconverted 1% them simply rule over the other 99%?
Non-ism as a doctrine is the ism of those with wealth and power. This same reactionary argument has been used throughout history - "if only it wasn't human nature for people to be cruel, then all slave owners would be kind and there would be no problems. Freeing the slaves won't accomplish anything." If all social problems are to be seen as a problem with human nature, then we are not really overcoming hierarchy, we are endorsing and reinforcing the existing hierarchy and the existing conditions.
09-02-2009, 10:48 AM
You are promoting anti-hierarchyism.
How would we overcome this tendency toward hierarchy? Is this one of those "human nature" challenges? Must human beings be reformed so that they will no longer form hierarchies? What if we were wildly successful at that, and actually converted 99% of the people to this non-hierarchical view? Would not the remaining unconverted 1% them simply rule over the other 99%?
Non-ism as a doctrine is the ism of those with wealth and power. This same reactionary argument has been used throughout history - "if only it wasn't human nature for people to be cruel, then all slave owners would be kind and there would be no problems. Freeing the slaves won't accomplish anything." If all social problems are to be seen as a problem with human nature, then we are not really overcoming hierarchy, we are endorsing and reinforcing the existing hierarchy and the existing conditions.
Re: What is Value?
Two Americas
09-02-2009, 10:55 AM
Who will have the power to enforce this non-hierarchy?
Of course it is just a matter of time before people abuse power. So we fight back. Would you argue that there is no sense in resisting assault because assault is inevitable - there will always be those assaulting others, because assault is inescapable given human nature? What sort of sense does that make?
09-02-2009, 10:55 AM
Who will have the power to enforce this non-hierarchy?
Of course it is just a matter of time before people abuse power. So we fight back. Would you argue that there is no sense in resisting assault because assault is inevitable - there will always be those assaulting others, because assault is inescapable given human nature? What sort of sense does that make?
Re: What is Value?
runs with scissors
09-02-2009, 11:40 AM
It's all very confusing to me.
Consider prison labor in the US, where you can't get much more alienated than, say, stuffing bags with software for Bill Gates. But as for "feelings" about alienation, or an attitude about value, or surplus, it's all very weird.
When basic needs for food, shelter, clothing, medicine etc are met BEFORE we sell our labor, does that change the subjective meaning of the labor, its value, the surplus it creates for another, or the concept of alienation?
I've heard (current and former) incarcerated people suggest they "didn't really mind" whatever low-paid drudgery labor they performed because they saw it (I suppose in the strange way we've all been infected by the cancer of capitalism), as almost "earning their keep."
As if there were some connection between a wealthy capitalist, a drug bust, and access to healthcare.
The cognitive dissonance, it fascinates.
09-02-2009, 11:40 AM
It's all very confusing to me.
Consider prison labor in the US, where you can't get much more alienated than, say, stuffing bags with software for Bill Gates. But as for "feelings" about alienation, or an attitude about value, or surplus, it's all very weird.
When basic needs for food, shelter, clothing, medicine etc are met BEFORE we sell our labor, does that change the subjective meaning of the labor, its value, the surplus it creates for another, or the concept of alienation?
I've heard (current and former) incarcerated people suggest they "didn't really mind" whatever low-paid drudgery labor they performed because they saw it (I suppose in the strange way we've all been infected by the cancer of capitalism), as almost "earning their keep."
As if there were some connection between a wealthy capitalist, a drug bust, and access to healthcare.
The cognitive dissonance, it fascinates.
Re: What is Value?
anaxarchos
09-02-2009, 01:16 PM
The reference to Marcuse (who was a smart guy) was because in the 1960s, he claimed that alienated youths were a by product of actual alienated labor. Having said that, he then prattled on endlessly about "feelings".
Actual alienation is the reality underpinning all "feelings", and absolutely immune to their arbitrary twists and turns. Nothing except the total reorganization of economic life changes "the subjective meaning" of labor, value, surplus or alienation: not management seminars or quality circles or split level houses or convection ovens or tantra yoga or good drugs... nothing, nada, zip...
It all comes back as if it were real because it is real. Alienation is Capital. It gets bigger, you don't. It will have your ass. It will not ask how you feel about it. In fact, it doesn't ask anything. It doesn't think, plan or negotiate. It ain't god. It is objectified , alienated, human labor but that is just a historical observation. It ain't got no human at all in it...
And it won't be wished away.
09-02-2009, 01:16 PM
The reference to Marcuse (who was a smart guy) was because in the 1960s, he claimed that alienated youths were a by product of actual alienated labor. Having said that, he then prattled on endlessly about "feelings".
Actual alienation is the reality underpinning all "feelings", and absolutely immune to their arbitrary twists and turns. Nothing except the total reorganization of economic life changes "the subjective meaning" of labor, value, surplus or alienation: not management seminars or quality circles or split level houses or convection ovens or tantra yoga or good drugs... nothing, nada, zip...
It all comes back as if it were real because it is real. Alienation is Capital. It gets bigger, you don't. It will have your ass. It will not ask how you feel about it. In fact, it doesn't ask anything. It doesn't think, plan or negotiate. It ain't god. It is objectified , alienated, human labor but that is just a historical observation. It ain't got no human at all in it...
And it won't be wished away.
Re: What is Value?
runs with scissors
09-02-2009, 02:12 PM
On a very small, if not weird, scale
[div class="excerpt"]Nothing except the total reorganization of economic life changes "the subjective meaning" of labor, value, surplus or alienation: not management seminars or quality circles or split level houses or convection ovens or tantra yoga or good drugs... nothing, nada, zip...[/quote]
Maybe that's what I'm hearing when I listen to those comments.
It'd certainly be a huge reorganization of economic life for most of us to not be selling our labor for food, shelter, healthcare, etc.
Interesting stuff.
09-02-2009, 02:12 PM
On a very small, if not weird, scale
[div class="excerpt"]Nothing except the total reorganization of economic life changes "the subjective meaning" of labor, value, surplus or alienation: not management seminars or quality circles or split level houses or convection ovens or tantra yoga or good drugs... nothing, nada, zip...[/quote]
Maybe that's what I'm hearing when I listen to those comments.
It'd certainly be a huge reorganization of economic life for most of us to not be selling our labor for food, shelter, healthcare, etc.
Interesting stuff.
Re: What is Value?
Dhalgren
09-02-2009, 08:00 PM
from Anax in another thread. It puts a lot of this "stuff" we are doing in perspective:
"Marx was by no means alone or even at the origins of this path of thinking. He was merely the most titanic figure on the road that our movement started traveling along before the French Revolution. The centrality of materialism and a rational understanding of our movement and goals was the work of the 19th century and was well traveled by those who had never heard of Marx (such as Pisarev).
For us too... the objective is to move in a certain direction, not because Marx said so, but because we have established with confidence that it is correct."
That last sentence, especially, strikes home with me. What we are doing (with the much needed help of our friends, here) is trying to "establish with confidence" that we are headed in the right direction. I, for one, am kind of excited about it. It is doing something constructive - it may seem small to some, but it is a required beginning...
09-02-2009, 08:00 PM
from Anax in another thread. It puts a lot of this "stuff" we are doing in perspective:
"Marx was by no means alone or even at the origins of this path of thinking. He was merely the most titanic figure on the road that our movement started traveling along before the French Revolution. The centrality of materialism and a rational understanding of our movement and goals was the work of the 19th century and was well traveled by those who had never heard of Marx (such as Pisarev).
For us too... the objective is to move in a certain direction, not because Marx said so, but because we have established with confidence that it is correct."
That last sentence, especially, strikes home with me. What we are doing (with the much needed help of our friends, here) is trying to "establish with confidence" that we are headed in the right direction. I, for one, am kind of excited about it. It is doing something constructive - it may seem small to some, but it is a required beginning...
Re: What is Value?
anaxarchos
09-02-2009, 09:11 PM
We are already into money, alienation, fetishism, and a half dozen other topics while we are nominally on page 4. It is all good, but it is also important for me to stay on the text if we are to keep going forward.
I have several fairly extensive write-ups on Fetishism on PopIndy (and maybe on SI too... I don't remember). You are welcome to dredge them up if you like. Just search on me and "fetish".
No, I am not concerned about what else may pop up on that search. My conscience is clean.
09-02-2009, 09:11 PM
We are already into money, alienation, fetishism, and a half dozen other topics while we are nominally on page 4. It is all good, but it is also important for me to stay on the text if we are to keep going forward.
I have several fairly extensive write-ups on Fetishism on PopIndy (and maybe on SI too... I don't remember). You are welcome to dredge them up if you like. Just search on me and "fetish".
No, I am not concerned about what else may pop up on that search. My conscience is clean.