anaxarchos
11-03-2009, 08:30 PM
...at the end of this section is interesting. It presages modern imperialism with Smith pointing to the inevitability of it and Ricardo wondering whether it is not "optional".
Of course, colonial trade had already existed for several centuries, but it is the future implications of this trade (and the export of capital) that is being discussed, and this at the very beginning of the Capitalist era.
On Economic Crisis
Re: On Economic Crisis
Kid of the Black Hole
11-04-2009, 11:24 AM
I've read parts of this before (or probably read most of it, but only remember snippets). In particular, Section 12.
But I am soemwhat confused about this part that you bolded:
During the examination of reproduction, it is, in the first place, assumed that the method of production remains the same and it remains the same, moreover, for a period while production expands. The volume of commodities produced is increased in this case, because more capital is employed and not because capital is employed more productively. But the mere quantitative increase in capital at the same time implies that its productive power grows. If its quantitative increase is the result of the development of productive power, then the latter in turn develops on the assumption of a broader, extended capitalist basis. Reciprocal interaction takes place in this case. Reproduction on an extended basis, accumulation, even if originally it appears only as a quantitative expansion of production—the use of more capital under the same conditions of production—at a certain point, therefore, always represents also a qualitative expansion in the form of greater productivity of the conditions under which reproduction is carried out. Consequently the volume of products increases not only in simple proportion to the growth of capital in expanded reproduction—accumulation.
I think the reason inolves the conditions under which capital is deployed in the general case. But I think I am missing a connection somewhere
11-04-2009, 11:24 AM
I've read parts of this before (or probably read most of it, but only remember snippets). In particular, Section 12.
But I am soemwhat confused about this part that you bolded:
During the examination of reproduction, it is, in the first place, assumed that the method of production remains the same and it remains the same, moreover, for a period while production expands. The volume of commodities produced is increased in this case, because more capital is employed and not because capital is employed more productively. But the mere quantitative increase in capital at the same time implies that its productive power grows. If its quantitative increase is the result of the development of productive power, then the latter in turn develops on the assumption of a broader, extended capitalist basis. Reciprocal interaction takes place in this case. Reproduction on an extended basis, accumulation, even if originally it appears only as a quantitative expansion of production—the use of more capital under the same conditions of production—at a certain point, therefore, always represents also a qualitative expansion in the form of greater productivity of the conditions under which reproduction is carried out. Consequently the volume of products increases not only in simple proportion to the growth of capital in expanded reproduction—accumulation.
I think the reason inolves the conditions under which capital is deployed in the general case. But I think I am missing a connection somewhere
Re: On Economic Crisis
Two Americas
11-04-2009, 11:48 AM
My guess: since the goal of the capitalist is always enrichment, transfer of wealth into his own hands (rather than meeting demand with supply), more capital always means increased productive power - mainly achieved by decreasing his costs for labor.
11-04-2009, 11:48 AM
My guess: since the goal of the capitalist is always enrichment, transfer of wealth into his own hands (rather than meeting demand with supply), more capital always means increased productive power - mainly achieved by decreasing his costs for labor.
Re: On Economic Crisis
Kid of the Black Hole
11-04-2009, 12:34 PM
For capital to be deployed, due to competition and constant circulation you MUST have a qualitative increase -- or else it would go elsewhere. So if you have a postiive quantitative expansion it must (considered over a long enough term) also imply a qualitative expansion as well.
But that still seems like a bit of a stretch from what I quoted
11-04-2009, 12:34 PM
For capital to be deployed, due to competition and constant circulation you MUST have a qualitative increase -- or else it would go elsewhere. So if you have a postiive quantitative expansion it must (considered over a long enough term) also imply a qualitative expansion as well.
But that still seems like a bit of a stretch from what I quoted
Re: On Economic Crisis
blindpig
11-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Expanded markets could be reason enough for quantitative increase.
Edit: How would transportation fit in? Let's say you are a 19th century capitalist producer of fruit. The development of steam ships would massively expand the market for your perishable product. Now that's a qualitative increase but it ain't yours.
Of course, if yer a Rockefeller or Peabody you just go and buy a steamship line....or the steamship line buys you out, oops, think I'm on to something...
What is that time scale again?
11-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Expanded markets could be reason enough for quantitative increase.
Edit: How would transportation fit in? Let's say you are a 19th century capitalist producer of fruit. The development of steam ships would massively expand the market for your perishable product. Now that's a qualitative increase but it ain't yours.
Of course, if yer a Rockefeller or Peabody you just go and buy a steamship line....or the steamship line buys you out, oops, think I'm on to something...
What is that time scale again?
Re: On Economic Crisis
Two Americas
11-04-2009, 01:18 PM
Expanded markets, increased profits in existing markets. Same forces at work.
"The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented."
11-04-2009, 01:18 PM
Expanded markets, increased profits in existing markets. Same forces at work.
"The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented."
Re: On Economic Crisis
anaxarchos
11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
I really don't think there is any controversy here (well maybe in the minds of some MR writers).
Part of the reason this is not better known is that it is a criticism of Ricardo's theories on accumulation which also exist elsewhere. The detailed exposition on "crisis" ends up being "hidden in plain sight". The positive aspect of Marx's exposition is remarkably complete... and accurate. Hell, they could give him a fake Nobel for this baby.
I'll return to your quotation when I have a minute.
11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
I really don't think there is any controversy here (well maybe in the minds of some MR writers).
Part of the reason this is not better known is that it is a criticism of Ricardo's theories on accumulation which also exist elsewhere. The detailed exposition on "crisis" ends up being "hidden in plain sight". The positive aspect of Marx's exposition is remarkably complete... and accurate. Hell, they could give him a fake Nobel for this baby.
I'll return to your quotation when I have a minute.
Re: On Economic Crisis
blindpig
11-04-2009, 01:45 PM
was that quantitative expansion of production implies qualitative improvement of production. In any case, I think I puzzled out my objection in the edit I just added to that post.
11-04-2009, 01:45 PM
was that quantitative expansion of production implies qualitative improvement of production. In any case, I think I puzzled out my objection in the edit I just added to that post.
Re: On Economic Crisis
Two Americas
11-04-2009, 02:04 PM
What the worker is being given, in money, for making something, is less than what the capitalist must sell it for, in money, but the value of the item made remains the same. The capitalist is paying less and selling for more - that is the enrichment that is the motivation for production in the first place, the transfer of wealth that is Capitalism. Therefore, at some time the two will be forcibly united, resulting in a crisis. The workers cannot pay the price the capitalist must get. There is not actually over-production - as measured against demand or need - but rather it is relative. The transfer of wealth, expropriated from the worker into the hands of the capitalist, means that inevitably sooner or later people will not be able to buy what the capitalist is selling - regardless of their needs or of demand. It is demand at a certain price that drops off and the supply at a certain price that looks like a glut. The glut, the inevitability of a glut, is certain given the very nature of Capitalism.
11-04-2009, 02:04 PM
What the worker is being given, in money, for making something, is less than what the capitalist must sell it for, in money, but the value of the item made remains the same. The capitalist is paying less and selling for more - that is the enrichment that is the motivation for production in the first place, the transfer of wealth that is Capitalism. Therefore, at some time the two will be forcibly united, resulting in a crisis. The workers cannot pay the price the capitalist must get. There is not actually over-production - as measured against demand or need - but rather it is relative. The transfer of wealth, expropriated from the worker into the hands of the capitalist, means that inevitably sooner or later people will not be able to buy what the capitalist is selling - regardless of their needs or of demand. It is demand at a certain price that drops off and the supply at a certain price that looks like a glut. The glut, the inevitability of a glut, is certain given the very nature of Capitalism.
Re: On Economic Crisis
Two Americas
11-04-2009, 02:12 PM
How could you stop Capitalism from qualitative improvement of production? The drive will always be in that direction.
I think that "quantitative expansion of production implies qualitative improvement of production" since the two are inevitable features of Capitalism. The more quantitative expansion of production, the more likely for there to be qualitative improvement of production. Expanded production attracts what? Capitalists. And Capitalists do what?
11-04-2009, 02:12 PM
How could you stop Capitalism from qualitative improvement of production? The drive will always be in that direction.
I think that "quantitative expansion of production implies qualitative improvement of production" since the two are inevitable features of Capitalism. The more quantitative expansion of production, the more likely for there to be qualitative improvement of production. Expanded production attracts what? Capitalists. And Capitalists do what?