The crisis of bourgeois economics

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blindpig
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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:21 pm

anaxarchos
08-05-2009, 08:28 PM

... as the U.K. is in the process of nationalizing shipyards, car factories, steel mills, airlines and giving up the Empire wholesale. That colonialism would inevitably be replaced by neo-colonialism and that the nationalized industries would be starved and eventually re-privatized under Thatcher... only to be shut down for good... none of this was obvious at the time. The bankruptcy of the U.K. at the end of WW2 was a moderate Socialist/Labor Party guy's Nirvana.

Of course, their idea of pressure from "worker's parties and unions" wasn't that different from Obama's "grassroots mobilization" to support his healthcare bill by calling up his donor list...
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:22 pm

meganmonkey
08-06-2009, 05:14 AM

I'm now to the part right before my favorite, Hayek is discussed, looking forward to that ha ha. I already know I'll need to re-read the whole thing to get a better understanding of the differences in these theories because it is like a foreign language to me...

What strikes me at this point, in terms of general overall impressions, is that trying to discuss Marxism in the most vague way results in reactions like 'academic' 'ivory tower' 'out of touch with reality' etc...but in reading how these various Kenyesian theories develop, the assumptions on which they are based, the way substantial criticisms are brushed off, it occurs to me that these theories, the very ones that influenced our economic policies for a century, are far removed from reality- current events are picked through so those which help 'prove' something are used and any contradictory is discarded...and worst of all there seems to be NO accounting for the fact that we aren't starting from a perfect blank slate where any of these ideas can actually be tested in a real way...(this was always my problem with Hayek in my Social Theory class way back when, little did I know...). They are pure theory and the foundations in reality are nonexistent.

Whereas Marx takes into account where we are (or where we were in his time, I suppose) how we got here, and even after all this time has passed and conditions, by some measurements, have changed considerably, his theory still holds water...and accounts for a transition and, of course, a change in the relations of power and social conditions.

Anyway, I have a long way to go before I really even know what I'm trying to say here, but this article is really good.

:)

ps and boy that Von Mises crap about unemployment being an indication of people wanting more fucking leisure really pisses me off. How out of touch with reality can someone be? I guess it depends on how much money they have in the bank. Grrr...
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:22 pm

meganmonkey
08-06-2009, 03:32 PM

"The radicals have the easier case to make. They have only to point to the discrepancies between the operation of the modern economy and the ideas by which it is supposed to be judged, while the conservatives have the well nigh impossible task of demonstrating that this is the best of all possible worlds. For the same reason, however, the conservatives are compensated by occupying positions of power, which they can use to keep criticism in check... The conservatives do not feel obliged to answer radical criticisms on their merits and the argument is never fairly joined.138"

Like the sun shining through parting clouds...
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:23 pm

Two Americas
08-06-2009, 04:09 PM

It always strikes me as odd to see liberals and Democrats struggle to communicate their message, get so frustrated and then lose so many arguments with conservatives. They believe that the conservative message is the easier one to deliver and explain and promote. There is probably a connection between the two.
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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:24 pm

anaxarchos
08-06-2009, 07:59 PM

... about people like me (i.e. "radicals", i.e. "commies"). She was writing in 1981 and was not talking about "Liberals and Democrats"... not even the revived "mixed system" or lame-assed "social democrats" of the present day. They didn't exist at that time.

Liberals and Democrats don't have an economic argument and sit significantly below the "Conservatives". What the Conservatives say is that, "Free enterprise is the best system and creates the most wealth and gives you your only opportunity to get rich and even if all that isn't true, you aren't gonna change it anyway. There will never be a revolution and the best you will ever get is corruption, feather bedding by various Liberals, endless bureaucracy and nothing but stagnation for your troubles. You might as well bet on your individual chance to crawl up the social pyramid on your lonesome, ignoring everyone else in the process because you have no other choices." Against the Liberals, it is a devastating indictment.

What do the Liberals say in return? At best they dig up the imagery of a 60 year dead president under the most unusual of circumstances. Today, even that is not a remote possibility. Liberals, even "radical liberals", have no stomach for anything like that. The Obama regime and its critics are proof positive of that simple fact. What is their most radical criticism of the current situation?

"We need regulation." ... As if that call hadn't been made since J.S. Mill and Bentham, 150 years ago. With what actual result?

"They are a conspiracy bent on stealing." ... Fookin' shocking Capitalism, obviously in need of "exposing"... in the "MSM", maybe? All of this most "radical" sounding criticism ends with a whimper when the subject gets to what to do about it. Regulation? Congressional hearings?

"We have to wage a war against greed..." How? Sensitivity training? Yoga? More female, black and Hispanic executives? Green industries?

It's all fucking ridiculous. The Conservatives have a field day with this shit. "You might as well take your chances with pure unadulterated Capitalism because they won't change shit. In the process, they will raise your taxes, close off the last opportunist chances you may have (perhaps you're white?) and generally fuck shit up, to boot." They're not wrong.

In comparison, our job is easy: "You have to overthrow the thing... all at once, without hesitation and without remorse."

"Well, that will never happen in America..."

Then you had better bend over, stick your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye, because that's all there is. The Consevatives know it, too.
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:24 pm

meganmonkey
08-07-2009, 10:43 AM

I saw TA's post yesterday evening and was pretty sure he was seeing 'conservative' vs 'radical' in a different light but didn't have time to look back and make sure I was remembering the context.

All this recycling of terms with different meanings in different times or contexts sure gets confusing. :)

I haven't quite finished the article yet, let alone go through it a second time. I may have more to say (or questions to ask) when I get a chance to do so..some things are confusing to me so I may need to dig around for some history as I reread it.

I'd really like to absorb some of the details. I tend to remember my broader understanding and reactions when I read this stuff but I'm so sick of having to look up names and dates over and over because I can't remember the details.
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:25 pm

Political Heretic
08-08-2009, 08:38 PM

I haven't really decide what, if anything, I want to say about it specifically - plus, the scope is so huge that trying to respond to it is a little overwhelming.
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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:25 pm

PinkoCommie
08-08-2009, 09:20 PM

I haven't the horsepower to do anything more than share the piece myself...


pardon any typos = pda response.
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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:26 pm

Kid of the Black Hole
08-09-2009, 07:51 AM

Harmon has frustrated me in the past, but he largely hits the mark in this article. I think that he is only a little too kind to Keynes even.

Hopefully others will get around to reading this so we can talk some more about it..there is alot of material
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Re: The crisis of bourgeois economics

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:26 pm

Kid of the Black Hole
08-09-2009, 07:57 AM

Harmon tells you what Keynes actually proscribes in The General Theory (somewhat against his own judgment and in spite of himself even). Harmon methodically strips away all of the din and stir and reveals the kernel that is left over.

What is that kernel? Drastic Government manipulation/suppresion of interest rates (whence his infamous euthanasia) and direct and total government direction of investment.

Now tell me, PH..does that sound "unrevolutionary" to you? Does that even sound feasible to you without some kind of revolution?
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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