Sympathy for the Devils...

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solidgold
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by solidgold » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:03 pm

kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:32 am
https://www.blackagendareport.com/fear- ... oppression

Here is BAR's take btw
I think comparing black voters to "hispanics" on the basis of minority status is harsh and possibly unhelpful. The conditions that lead to "hispanic" life in America are unique to themselves--same goes for American Muslims, Japanese Americans, etc. I think conflating groups like this, sans class analysis, is harmful. Did "fearful black voters" give Biden a surprise win on Super Tuesday? Possibly. Or are we looking at the natural results of weak class consciousness.
Black youth see the truth, and will act on it, we are certain.
This keeps me optimistic, but an L for socialism is always cold hard proof of its "ineffectiveness." ...And then we're back to where we started.

EDIT: this was written before you posted The Root follow-up.

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kidoftheblackhole
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by kidoftheblackhole » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:17 pm

solidgold wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:03 pm
kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:32 am
https://www.blackagendareport.com/fear- ... oppression

Here is BAR's take btw
I think comparing black voters to "hispanics" on the basis of minority status is harsh and possibly unhelpful. The conditions that lead to "hispanic" life in America are unique to themselves--same goes for American Muslims, Japanese Americans, etc. I think conflating groups like this, sans class analysis, is harmful. Did "fearful black voters" give Biden a surprise win on Super Tuesday? Possibly. Or are we looking at the natural results of weak class consciousness.
Black youth see the truth, and will act on it, we are certain.
This keeps me optimistic, but an L for socialism is always cold hard proof of its "ineffectiveness." ...And then we're back to where we started.

EDIT: this was written before you posted The Root follow-up.
It's the same old extortion racket. Vote for us or..else (cut to scary images of Republicans..which, granted, Trump makes a bit too easy). It's not unique to black folks but the threat weights far more heavily. Because after all, they can't exactly turn to the other party that says "Sure, we're evil but the other side is trying to extort you. And, hey if we make a big enough killing we'll throw you some scraps -- at the expense of..blacks, hispanics, gays, women, muslims,..

solidgold
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by solidgold » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:42 pm

kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:17 pm
solidgold wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:03 pm
kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:32 am
https://www.blackagendareport.com/fear- ... oppression

Here is BAR's take btw
I think comparing black voters to "hispanics" on the basis of minority status is harsh and possibly unhelpful. The conditions that lead to "hispanic" life in America are unique to themselves--same goes for American Muslims, Japanese Americans, etc. I think conflating groups like this, sans class analysis, is harmful. Did "fearful black voters" give Biden a surprise win on Super Tuesday? Possibly. Or are we looking at the natural results of weak class consciousness.
Black youth see the truth, and will act on it, we are certain.
This keeps me optimistic, but an L for socialism is always cold hard proof of its "ineffectiveness." ...And then we're back to where we started.

EDIT: this was written before you posted The Root follow-up.
It's the same old extortion racket. Vote for us or..else (cut to scary images of Republicans..which, granted, Trump makes a bit too easy). It's not unique to black folks but the threat weights far more heavily. Because after all, they can't exactly turn to the other party that says "Sure, we're evil but the other side is trying to extort you. And, hey if we make a big enough killing we'll throw you some scraps -- at the expense of..blacks, hispanics, gays, women, muslims,..
What do you make of the Root article?

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kidoftheblackhole
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by kidoftheblackhole » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:55 pm

The context is that they've been backing Biden hard for quite some time and it appears that they are feeling a little heat for being part of the "Black Misleadership" although that is more of a Trot term (a la "Union tops"). Once you dip your toe into bourgeoisie electoral politics you are bound to bathe in it's filth. You can try to carve out some high ground for yourself but it hardly stands up to scrutiny -- as anyone can plainly see you are covered in shit. This is different than "complicity" (which is where the Trots are leading you) and it is different than servility (which is where some of the radicals would take you) but it remains a deplorable state of affairs that must be overcome on an absolute basis -- rather than a relative one such as finding a "once in a generation leader".

solidgold
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by solidgold » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:35 pm

kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:55 pm
The context is that they've been backing Biden
You mean the website? I'm not familiar with the Root.

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blindpig
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by blindpig » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:29 pm

kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:20 am
solidgold wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:07 pm
blindpig wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:17 pm
[/b]

Indeed. Well, they can turn off the klaxons, stand down the ninjas, the situation has returned to normal. The danger of a socialist revolution has been averted. From here on the Word will be 'socialism has been rejected by the American People'. End of Story. How this will play with the Bernie Bros remains to be seen, while we've seen this movie they do seem a bit more militant baa-baas this time. We'll see.....

Bernie sounds upbeat, more so than two days ago when a socialist revolution was being predicted. Who wants that? Certainly not Bernie. So then, back to the script. Back to the sheepdog business. Now Bernie has got somebody to surrender to and deliver up the sheep.

The Democratic Party would rather go down in the putrid flames of a dumpster fire that is the man formerly known as the Senator From Mastercard and endure Four More Years of disagreeable optics from Cheeto Man than allow that there might be anything good and acceptable about socialism.

Besides, most of their disdain for the chumpster is the optics anyways. And that ' Soul of the Democratic Party', it is firmly ensconced on the heart of murderous Capital, where it was born and where it will die.
Heard a mix of things: voter suppression in Texas, Bernie not appealing to black voters, young people not coming out, Elizabeth Warren not dropping out. I don't think the last one is making as much of a difference as the B-bros think. Meanwhile, Biden is malfunctioning before our eyes. Oof. What a truly shitty party.

Not really sure if it's optics or they actually think Biden has a chance against Trump. 'Cause he straight up doesn't.
I think there are multiple threads and none (maybe one) have to do with personality:

1. Ever wonder why the Dems consistently turn a blind eye to voter suppression (which is a euphemism btw) on a massive scale -- even when it more or less seals their own fate? Now you know.

1a. Elections are being decided on the margins. Anaxarchos called it "point shaving" and that is how the game is played. Four years ago, blacks in Detroit don't turn out like they did for Obama, people who are worse off than four years before break heavily and -- boom -- you get Trump. The system isn't really prepared for a "wave of enthusiasm" (which even Trump did not enjoy) or, to call it more properly, a Wave of Animus. One thing you can't fault worker's for is we hate those fuckers. All of them.

2. Much as putting down Sanders was a sign of party strength (and, conversely, the rise of Trump was a sign of fractures and weakness in the Republican Party) the same thing is playing out again jsut as it was bound to -- as nothing was settled last time. The difference is that the consequences are even more severe this time -- how do they hold together parties that are moving from fraying to unraveling at the seams?

2a. Social crisis, economic crisis, .., can't forestall political crisis forever even in the seat of Empire. Trump is the perfect incarnation of the obscenity of American power. The Empire has no hair piece. But believe this -- it can and will get FAR worse. (eg Not too long now before England declares itself a "Christian" nation).

3. Now what? 'Bernie' looks like toast and with him the idea that the groundswell of sentiment behind him can be diverted into the confines of the DP. The underlying conditions aren't going away -- so "Now What?" NB this also means, from the perspective of the Dems Party of Order, that there is little hope of any rapproachment -- they've proven and are proving again that they'll break their own back to spite their spine. There was open talk of "capital strikes" against Sanders until yesterday's jubilee.

3a. Serious soul searching needed on the part of BAR and all fellow travelers. Black folks are clinging to a walking (well, shambling) cadaver who is clinging to the coat tails of Obama. And it's NOT because they're stupid or because they're being (uniquely) manipulated. Far too much claptrap about the Greens and running third party. Their establishment counterparts (think The Root) are dunking all over them right now. And this within the context that black people KNOW Joe Biden (although not exactly in the way Jim Clyburn was implying lol).

3b. Virtually NO ONE took the right lesson from Corbynism (short lived as it was). Corbyn swept to power as an anti-establishment figure. But his timidity, vacillation, and ties to the Party of Order (to borrow from Marx) were glaring from the get go -- and the hard right filled the vacuum.
Apparently the kids didn't believe enough to drag their asses to the polls, joining the 44% no-shows(higher this time), despite their easy internet allegiance, which might be, well, nihilistic.Which if I'm correct would be wise. Because Bernie is a Dem, despite occasionally hoisting his flag of convenience. Why would he run in their primary and why would they accept that if things were otherwise? Did Bernie ever really attempt to jack up registration/participation or has he just been blowing smoke? Or was it a threat? Cause that would be a danger to the point shaving op. Whatever, it's likely a done deal. I was really hoping it would last longer, just for the tension and mebbe Bloomberg as the nominee, which would be crazy stark.

Yes concerning BAR & Roots, jesus...

As per Corbyn so Bernie, to win hard left, but that duplicity is too much for the DNC, not for the dishonesty, their forte, but cause the rhetorical goalposts were moved in 1990 and they like the positioning just as it is. They intend to enforce the End Of History, even if they don't really know what they're saying.
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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kidoftheblackhole
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by kidoftheblackhole » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:05 pm

Hey BP, I think what you are saying is that Bernie is bad at his job of being a sheepdog :)

No, I don't think it is nihilism. I think the opposite -- I think it was strong enough that it had to be harshly suppressed (or at least there was enough fear to prompt heavy handed suppression efforts). There is far, far too little discussion of the rollback of the Voting Rights Act. Recently an article ran exposing that Texas shut down 750 polling stations in primarily minority areas. This is exactly what mandatory federal oversight for untrustworthy states was designed to prohibit. Civil Rights is on the chopping block at this point.

Here is discussion of the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_County_v._Holder

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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by blindpig » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:48 am

kidoftheblackhole wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:05 pm
Hey BP, I think what you are saying is that Bernie is bad at his job of being a sheepdog :)

No, I don't think it is nihilism. I think the opposite -- I think it was strong enough that it had to be harshly suppressed (or at least there was enough fear to prompt heavy handed suppression efforts). There is far, far too little discussion of the rollback of the Voting Rights Act. Recently an article ran exposing that Texas shut down 750 polling stations in primarily minority areas. This is exactly what mandatory federal oversight for untrustworthy states was designed to prohibit. Civil Rights is on the chopping block at this point.

Here is discussion of the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_County_v._Holder
Well, it is a sucky & pretty impossible job, I think he does it as well as can be, papering over galactic sized contradictions is hard work.

I ment nihilism in the 'good' way....but not so incisive as intuitive. Gotta start somewhere.

They will blame the vote gaming on Trump but it has long been a Republican project, a desperate hedge against demographic catastrophe. Best I understand that's how the carried Michigan last time. It's a con that's bound to be busted sooner or later but 'live for the moment' is the zeitgeist.
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by blindpig » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:49 am

A couple interesting comments from the readers of Moon of Alabama

*******************************************************

As much as I'm sure election interference is a factor, I think the biggest story of the primary is the credulity and submissiveness of the average Democratic voter. Republican voters gave the middle finger to their establishment and hoisted Trump into the presidency.

Democrats were stampeded into the arms of a demented old segregationist by a pork-fattened Uncle Tom (Clyburn) and the pansies at MSNBC and the Washington Post. It's a true sight to behold---Super Tuesday may have been a self inflicted deathblow for the old jackasses; I will watch the party die with glee.

Posted by: Morbidist | Mar 11 2020 0:34 utc | 36

**********************************************************

1. It's long been a truism for many including myself that barring some wild card, Trump likely will win in 2020. Although a for-real Sanders could have beaten Trump, we knew the DNC would steal the nomination from him. Sanders now will roll over as in 2016. He'll shill for the DNC nominee, as he unilaterally, unconditionally promised from the start.

2. The Corona pandemic may become this wild card, and Trump looks incapable of dealing with it even on a demagogic level. This opens up the possibility that even a DNC candidate fake-talking a good game could beat him. The DNC would rather Trump win than Sanders, but would rather their own corporate candidate win over Trump.

3. In that case, are they really going to throw away such an opportunity by nominating someone who's literally in a state of dementia? That would exceed even my expectations of how stupid the Democrats are.

4. The Dembots and much of the leadership are true believers in Hillary being the chosen one. Only that could have given such fuel to the Russiagate Derangement, something so counter-factual and stupid that no rational or normally irrational state of mind could have clung to it with such demented tenacity for so long and at such opportunity cost.

5. Therefore, barring some new wild card specific to the Democrat circus, I expect the broken convention will anoint Hillary.

Posted by: Russ | Mar 11 2020 5:32 utc | 51

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/03/2 ... ad-04.html
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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kidoftheblackhole
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Re: Sympathy for the Devils...

Post by kidoftheblackhole » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:22 pm

I'm not sure any of that rises to the level of analysis.

All "misleadership" talk (and note that it tends to be exclusively pointed at blacks in many/most cases) rings hollow when it is centered on workers picking the wrong bourgeoisie candidate (and no one should be kidding themselves about Bernie in that regard).

Malcolm X said that the system is incapable of liberating black folks and likened the idea to a chicken laying a duck egg. It won't happen because it can't happen.

We need a heavy dose of talk like that and far less race baiting that sows bitterness and division and inflames old gaping wounds. The (vastly white) establishment trotted out their worthless asshole candidates and black people -- along with everyone who participated -- chose one based on their own calculations of self preservation. Tell me how CLASS factors into it?

Trump's base is the capitalist class -- without whom he'd probably be going through more bankruptcy proceedings over his slumlord empire right about now. Biden's base is the capitalist class -- without whom he would've been laughed off the campaign trail just as he was in his previous runs. Bernie annoys them and perhaps even scares them but as an individual his fealty to the capitalist class is hardly in question. Latching on to a "movement" that is latched on to him without dissecting its class character and composition and direction is hardly materialist or scientific.

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