Capital and Nature

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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:40 pm

Kid of the Black Hole
04-28-2007, 11:47 PM
One of the mysteries of archaeology is the curious practice of trepanation -- drilling holes in the skulls of living humans -- by ancient peoples. (We know they were living because the holes later healed.) The most common hypothesis is that the trepaned folk suffered from extreme migraines -- that the trepanation was intended to ease the pain by giving the Migraine Monsters opportunity to escape the head in much the same way the Bean Bogies escape via the anus. (No wonder the eating of beans was taboo in ancient Ireland!) But now it comes to me that it is just as likely trepanation was punishment for letting the fire go out, as in...

Hey stupid, how are you going to get it through your head that when you let the fire go out, it's a huge pain with the bow and drill to get the fire started again?

:twisted:

("fire drill" herein restored to its original meaning)
Too bad Mairead isn't around, she'd be sure to come and piss on your parade (and your fire) by telling you how unfunny that was :)
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:42 pm

anaxarchos
04-29-2007, 05:00 PM
Couple of things. I haven't read Capital - maybe parts of it in college but I don't remember. I can't stand reading Marx. I am relying on google and you guys to avoid having to do so. This is my weakness, I own it, and I need to get over it. I plan on starting with the Communist Manifesto because I have it on my bookshelf and it is really short. I guess I'll go for Capital next if it is that fundamental.

For the time being, can you clue me into the specific discrepancy here, or are you going to make me do my own homework?

How can you not like to read the old fart? His books are as different as night and day. The Manifesto can blister your skin, while Capital is a dry book (6 books) about economics. I think, though, that they are equally important, and that Capital is the main buttress for the claim that Marx is not just a socialist but the father of "scientific socialism". Personally, I think it is titanic (minus the iceberg).

It is as science that the discussion of Burkett is relevant. In general, scientific theory does not generalize well outside of its immediate realm of inquiry. It is very difficult to map one scientific theory to another domain on the inevitable claim that X is “just like” Y. This applies to bad theory as well as good.

Consider Darwinism and Social Darwinism. Darwin’s Theory of Evolution has tremendous significance as the basis for understanding the origin and transformation of species. Applied to human society as “Social Darwinism”, however, it is an absolute dud. If one takes a step backwards, the reason is apparent. Darwin’s theory is a theory about populations which has no implications whatever for “individuals” within those populations. Darwin explains a long-term biological process quite independent of individual consciousness or the relative success of individuals within relatively short life spans. Finally, Darwin’s categories don’t map to human political theories. Darwin’s classifications (the beginning of science according to Aristotle) are precise and objectively determined. “Success” for Darwin is the simple survival of one species in place of another. There is no way at all to compare that to the subjectively determined social “success” used by Social Darwinists. It is entirely clear that “Social Darwinism” is nothing other than a figure of speech: a reactionary social theory intended to appropriate the authority and the phrasing (“survival of the fittest”) of Darwin but nothing more.

As with “good theory”, so also with bad. Consider Malthus’ Theory of Population. Unlike Darwin’s, Malthus’ theory starts as political doctrine designed to agitate against relief or charity to help the poor. Malthus argues that the “natural mechanism” for the control of population is the finite supply of food grown on potentially finite farmland. In fact, there is no historical evidence whatever that this is true. Population does not grow until it is negated by starvation and food supply does not remain static – quite the opposite, productiveness increases at a faster rate than the growth of population. The “Theory of Population” became a dated reactionary political doctrine until resurrected by the neo-Malthusians of 30 years ago.

But, as was detailed in the Means thread, resurrection does not imply renovation. What was both odious and dubious as Theory of Population becomes incomprehensible as the revised theory of “finite resources”. There is no possible corollary between “energy” and population, even in Malthus’ pernicious framework. It gets sillier still if energy becomes “cheap” energy and still more irrelevant if food is replaced by a “totality of resources”, some one of which has to be “finite”, “sooner or later”.

In truth, Malthusian theory is a marker for a certain type of “ecological consciousness”. Just as every theory of a New World Order inevitably traces back to some variant of The Protocols of Zion, every single modern Malthusian reference derives from some sort of anti-immigration root based on “finite” space, subjectively defined. The connection to Malthus, himself, is intended to establish a logical path to both population and the essential finity of “nature”.

Now, on to the question at hand…

Capital doesn’t care about “nature”, anymore than it cares about urban housing or child labor or infant mortality or bubonic plague, all of which it directly impacts. The augmentation of capital has no mechanism for “caring” about anything but the rate and mass of profit and, to the extent that such “external issues” influence the calculations of capital at all, they do so only indirectly, through their impact on the cost of production. The central core of capitalism is its exploitation of labor. Capital makes use of the simple fact that what labor produces is greater than the cost of reproduction of labor. The result is the production of surplus value, the foundation of capitalist production. The significance of Marx’s Capital is in the precise description of this process as a partisan science. Its importance to class conscious social movements is obvious.

There is no question that capitalism has a detrimental effect on “nature” or the ecology of the earth, just as it is clear that there is no intrinsic countervailing mechanism within capital. Again as with child labor, left to its own devices, capital will take the path of lowest costs and highest profits, limited only by social and political pressures, external and independent of the workings of Capital itself.

That is not good enough for Burkett. He would like to turn Marx’s contradiction between capital and labor into a fundamental contradiction between capital and labor or nature. The intent is the same as with all “eco-socialists”: to make the struggle between capital and nature independent of class struggle, and even to give it primacy over such struggle. Just as in the discussion of Darwin and Malthus above, the intent is also to appropriate the slogans and authority of Marxism without paying much attention to its content.


First, there is the contradiction between use value and exchange value. This should not be treated as merely a formal, abstract contradiction as is sometimes done in modern theoretical interpretations of Marx's work. Rather, it must be seen as the historical development of the tension between the requirements of money-making and monetary valuation on the one hand, and the needs of human beings, of sustainable human development, on the other. In Marx's view, capitalism worsens this tension precisely insofar as it develops and socializes productive forces (labor and nature) in line with the requirements of competitive production for profit.

This is not only badly formulated but nonsensical. The contradiction between use-value and value is precisely a “formal, abstract contradiction”. In Marx’s analysis, use-values are merely a precondition for the development of commodities. A “tension”, just as surely exists between the evolution of use-values under capitalism and the actual “needs of human beings” (as those who are against “consumerism” constantly remind us). The problem here though, is worse than bad Marxism. Burkett not only revises but also supplements Marx. Capitalism now “socializes” the productive forces of labor and nature (one wonders how that is done, exactly). The contradiction is with “sustainable” human development. Whatever that silly phrase may mean, it has no correlation to anything written by Marx (I have no patience with the open-ended, intentionally ambiguous verbiage of part of the current left: sustainable, classist, corporatist, hierarchy…). In other places Burkett redefines Marx’s terms. Capital now “exploits” nature, just as it does labor… but in order to make it do so, “exploitation” now no longer refers to the very precise appropriation of surplus value but has become the generic equivalent of “uses” or “modifies”.


The second contradiction established by Marx is the essentially class-exploitative nature of capitalism, its reliance on the extraction of surplus labor time from the direct producers. Marx shows how the wage-labor form both conceals and is shaped by the fact that workers perform surplus labor for the capitalist even insofar as they are paid the value of their labor power. He also shows that this exploitation is based on capitalism's specific social separation of workers from access to and control over necessary conditions of production. This separation is what forces workers to accept worktimes longer than those necessary to produce their own commodified means of subsistence, even though the extension of the length and intensity of worktime hinders their development as human beings. More specifically -- and this aspect has not been adequately appreciated -- Marx shows how this forced surplus labor time involves capital's appropriation of the labor power (potential work) that is produced during workers' non-worktime, not only through rest and recuperation but also through the domestic reproductive labors of workers and other members of worker-households.

In order to set up his next revision, Burkett so thoroughly butchers Marx above that he actually mimics an argument (“Senior’s Last Hour”) that Marx savagely criticizes in Capital. In fact, there is some sort of humanist argument here that may well be accurate but has nothing to do with Marx.

And so on…

For the rest, you are on your own. In fact, you are on your own, anyway. What I have just written is a potential magnet for all kinds of flak (“no its not”, “yes, it is”, “doesn’t matter”, “wanna see my dog?”) that can not be properly resolved on the web.

Hope this gives you a place to start.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:43 pm

Kid of the Black Hole
04-29-2007, 05:51 PM

This is more wolfs argument, but I'm assuming that when he says "capitalism (and by a process of extension Abrahamic religion) is implicitly hostile toward nature" he doesn't mean because of some 5,000 year old imperative from the Old Man himself (which would kind of presage the whole Hamilton/Jefferson tiff I guess).

What I'm trying to do is separate out the kooky stuff here..
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:45 pm

anaxarchos
04-29-2007, 06:37 PM
This is more wolfs argument, but I'm assuming that when he says "capitalism (and by a process of extension Abrahamic religion) is implicitly hostile toward nature" he doesn't mean because of some 5,000 year old imperative from the Old Man himself (which would kind of presage the whole Hamilton/Jefferson tiff I guess).

What I'm trying to do is separate out the kooky stuff here..
Which "Old Man" is this? God or Marx?

Wolf's view is subjective. You'll have to get from him what the origin of subjective intent is.

There is NO objective "hostility" in Marx between "nature" and capital. In fact, the individual capitalist is probably more likely to be a "lover of nature", simply because the capitalist typically has more of the time and means needed to enjoy it. I have no doubt that individual capitalists are important to the ecological movement, just as they are to various charities.

From the standpoint of Capital, however, there is no room for any such sentiment (go look at balance sheets on yahoo financials and tell me exactly where one finds "social responsibility" or eco-conciousness). If it is more profitable to strip mine than to underground mine, that's exactly what you get. If it is the opposite, you get the opposite. If there are some juridical or political limits to strip mining, then that is what Capital lives with, exactly like any other "regulation". Sometimes, Capital "cheats", sometimes it accomodates, sometimes it pays off the capitalist state to "fine tune" regulation and sometimes, it hires Benito Mussolini to get a rollback.

Nothin' personal... just business.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:47 pm

Kid of the Black Hole
04-29-2007, 06:40 PM
This is more wolfs argument, but I'm assuming that when he says "capitalism (and by a process of extension Abrahamic religion) is implicitly hostile toward nature" he doesn't mean because of some 5,000 year old imperative from the Old Man himself (which would kind of presage the whole Hamilton/Jefferson tiff I guess).

What I'm trying to do is separate out the kooky stuff here..
Which "Old Man" is this? God or Marx?

Wolf's view is subjective. You'll have to get from him what the origin of subjective intent is.

There is NO objective "hostility" in Marx between "nature" and capital. In fact, the individual capitalist is probably more likely to be a "lover of nature", simply because the capitalist typically has more of the time and means needed to enjoy it. I have no doubt that individual capitalists are important to the ecological movement, just as they are to various charities.

From the standpoint of Capital, however, there is no room for any such sentiment (go look at balance sheets on yahoo financials and tell me exactly where one finds "social responsibility" or eco-conciousness). If it is more profitable to strip mine than to underground mine, that's exactly what you get. If it is the opposite, you get the opposite. If there are some juridical or political limits to strip mining, then that is what Capital lives with, exactly like any other "regulation". Sometimes, Capital "cheats", sometimes it accomodates, sometimes it pays off the capitalist state to "fine tune" regulation and sometimes, it hires Benito Mussolini to get a rollback.

Nothin' personal... just business.
.

Eh, the pun didn't come off that well..I was meaning Father Abraham ;)
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:49 pm

anaxarchos
05-01-2007, 11:31 AM
I am pretty well convinced that many of our current means of production and distribution (which have developed as a result of capitalism) are detrimental to people on many levels, including our ability to live on this planet with its finite resources (note - I am NOT talking about population control here, nor technology as a whole). These systems would not necessarily exist as they do if capitalism hadn't not developed when it did. Now, I understand a little about the 'inevitability' of capitalism as a step toward a socialist revolution, but maybe not enough, and maybe that is where I get lost.

I imagine that when the socialist revolution occurs and capitalism falls that a lot of the logistics of things will change because as they are now, they are not in the best interest of the people. That seems to be part of what what Burkett is positing in the interview/book. It actually makes some sense to me. Am I looking at this totally wrong?

So much for trying to keep my questions simple and ask them one at a time...
Yes... but with a caution. Breaking the grip of Capital does not mean ending the Laws of Physics. There is a certain "freedom and necessity" at work here. You need look no further than actual socialist revolutions to see it at work. The demands of the revolution have always been the same: democracy and egalite in the economic realm as well as in the juridical and political. Breaking the hold of capital accomplishes that politically but sets the groundwork for an extended transition. If the country is backward, there is no question of "leaping forward" in a short time. There is a very complex process of setting priorities (typically starting with the basics - education, health care, housing, and so on). In each segment where the capitalist market automatically sets priorities and concentrations, even if in the wrong direction, a system of conscious processes must be substituted which perform the function of what was a previously unfair but vastly "efficient" system. There are likely to be segments of the society where capitalist development is just beginning and has not matured. Thus, capitalism exists and is encouraged in the cracks of an otherwise socialist society. The opportunities for black markets, graft, bribery, etc. are legion. Take that as a whole and add the factors for socialist states up to this time such as the requirements for reconstruction after war/civil war/revolution and the continuing competition, economic, military, and technical, of a majority of the world that remains capitalist and hostile, and the extent of the problem appears. Remember the claims about the impact of the competition in "blue jeans" made by the Reaganites in their "economic war" on the Soviet Union?

Yes, I think you and Burkett are right that it is unlikely that socialist states would trade global warming and the rise of sea levels by 20 feet for the "right" to multiply the number of cars by 100 or to make Hummers available to the masses. It is probably also true that, given economic control rather than market anarchy, stopping the flushing of pesticides into rivers would probably take a higher priority than say creating 47 new kinds of energy bars or the very real and sizable "waste" associated with creating another 75 types of toilet paper. In that sense, I think you are exactly right. In truth, it is unlikely that people in capitalist states would "vote" for such insane realities of our "economy", if such options were really decided by them.

Having said all this, though, it is a mistake to minimize the problems or to think they are simply solved organically. Certainly a worldwide socialist economy changes the game dramatically but the complexities are still such that most Marxists are reluctant to talk about "socialism" or "communism" except in the broadest terms.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:52 pm

meganmonkey
05-02-2007, 08:33 AM
I am pretty well convinced that many of our current means of production and distribution (which have developed as a result of capitalism) are detrimental to people on many levels, including our ability to live on this planet with its finite resources (note - I am NOT talking about population control here, nor technology as a whole). These systems would not necessarily exist as they do if capitalism hadn't not developed when it did. Now, I understand a little about the 'inevitability' of capitalism as a step toward a socialist revolution, but maybe not enough, and maybe that is where I get lost.

I imagine that when the socialist revolution occurs and capitalism falls that a lot of the logistics of things will change because as they are now, they are not in the best interest of the people. That seems to be part of what what Burkett is positing in the interview/book. It actually makes some sense to me. Am I looking at this totally wrong?

So much for trying to keep my questions simple and ask them one at a time...
Yes... but with a caution. Breaking the grip of Capital does not mean ending the Laws of Physics. There is a certain "freedom and necessity" at work here. You need look no further than actual socialist revolutions to see it at work. The demands of the revolution have always been the same: democracy and egalite in the economic realm as well as in the juridical and political. Breaking the hold of capital accomplishes that politically but sets the groundwork for an extended transition. If the country is backward, there is no question of "leaping forward" in a short time. There is a very complex process of setting priorities (typically starting with the basics - education, health care, housing, and so on). In each segment where the capitalist market automatically sets priorities and concentrations, even if in the wrong direction, a system of conscious processes must be substituted which perform the function of what was a previously unfair but vastly "efficient" system. There are likely to be segments of the society where capitalist development is just beginning and has not matured. Thus, capitalism exists and is encouraged in the cracks of an otherwise socialist society. The opportunities for black markets, graft, bribery, etc. are legion. Take that as a whole and add the factors for socialist states up to this time such as the requirements for reconstruction after war/civil war/revolution and the continuing competition, economic, military, and technical, of a majority of the world that remains capitalist and hostile, and the extent of the problem appears. Remember the claims about the impact of the competition in "blue jeans" made by the Reaganites in their "economic war" on the Soviet Union?

Yes, I think you and Burkett are right that it is unlikely that socialist states would trade global warming and the rise of sea levels by 20 feet for the "right" to multiply the number of cars by 100 or to make Hummers available to the masses. It is probably also true that, given economic control rather than market anarchy, stopping the flushing of pesticides into rivers would probably take a higher priority than say creating 47 new kinds of energy bars or the very real and sizable "waste" associated with creating another 75 types of toilet paper. In that sense, I think you are exactly right. In truth, it is unlikely that people in capitalist states would "vote" for such insane realities of our "economy", if such options were really decided by them.

Having said all this, though, it is a mistake to minimize the problems or to think they are simply solved organically. Certainly a worldwide socialist economy changes the game dramatically but the complexities are still such that most Marxists are reluctant to talk about "socialism" or "communism" except in the broadest terms.
Thanks, anax, for this and the previous reply. I did start reading the manifesto again, and just within the first few pages a lot of things are becoming clearer. There is certainly no conflict between what I have been thinking about (decentralized distribution of basic resources etc) and Marxism.

"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society....The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the whole surface of the globe...."

I want to be careful about reading into this to fit my perspective here, but there does seem to be an implication that these systems, as they are today, exist only for the benefit of the bourgeoisie under capitalism and would very likely come out differently in a socialist/communist system. That isn't to say that all technology and global trade will stop developing or that it is inherently bad or anything along those lines. We are where we are, this is where we start from. It isn't a moral judgment , it is a reality of the existing market system which is a flawed (that's an understatement) system.

I have had a few other mild revelations (this is all within the first 10 pages or so, it's ridiculous). I can already see why a common argument against socialism is weak - I keep hearing people say that since we have moved away from manufacturing, more machine production, less of a 'labor' class in the realm of industrial production, that the framework of Marxism doesn't fit the current state of computer workers, more abstract service jobs etc...but that's irrelevant, isn't it? The key here is the relationship of the ownership class to the working class which hasn't changed, in fact it has gotten worse in many respects.

Shit, I have more to say but I have to get out the door and go to work - I just wanted to get some of this down this morning so you wouldn't think I abandoned this conversation. I am pretty busy right now so this may be slow-going but I appreciate you taking the time to help talk me through some of this.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:54 pm

anaxarchos
05-02-2007, 11:07 AM
I want to be careful about reading into this to fit my perspective here, but there does seem to be an implication that these systems, as they are today, exist only for the benefit of the bourgeoisie under capitalism and would very likely come out differently in a socialist/communist system. That isn't to say that all technology and global trade will stop developing or that it is inherently bad or anything along those lines. We are where we are, this is where we start from. It isn't a moral judgment , it is a reality of the existing market system which is a flawed (that's an understatement) system.

I have had a few other mild revelations (this is all within the first 10 pages or so, it's ridiculous). I can already see why a common argument against socialism is weak - I keep hearing people say that since we have moved away from manufacturing, more machine production, less of a 'labor' class in the realm of industrial production, that the framework of Marxism doesn't fit the current state of computer workers, more abstract service jobs etc...but that's irrelevant, isn't it? The key here is the relationship of the ownership class to the working class which hasn't changed, in fact it has gotten worse in many respects.

Shit, I have more to say but I have to get out the door and go to work - I just wanted to get some of this down this morning so you wouldn't think I abandoned this conversation. I am pretty busy right now so this may be slow-going but I appreciate you taking the time to help talk me through some of this.
There is so much in Marx to warm the heart of the the most ardent environmentalist, that a very real caution is called for. Consider the following:


We see then: the means of production and of exchange, on whose foundation the bourgeoisie built itself up, were generated in feudal society. At a certain stage in the development of these means of production and of exchange, the conditions under which feudal society produced and exchanged, the feudal organisation of agriculture and manufacturing industry, in one word, the feudal relations of property became no longer compatible with the already developed productive forces; they became so many fetters. They had to be burst asunder; they were burst asunder.

Into their place stepped free competition, accompanied by a social and political constitution adapted in it, and the economic and political sway of the bourgeois class.

A similar movement is going on before our own eyes. Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells. For many a decade past the history of industry and commerce is but the history of the revolt of modern productive forces against modern conditions of production, against the property relations that are the conditions for the existence of the bourgeois and of its rule. It is enough to mention the commercial crises that by their periodical return put the existence of the entire bourgeois society on its trial, each time more threateningly. In these crises, a great part not only of the existing products, but also of the previously created productive forces, are periodically destroyed. In these crises, there breaks out an epidemic that, in all earlier epochs, would have seemed an absurdity — the epidemic of over-production. Society suddenly finds itself put back into a state of momentary barbarism; it appears as if a famine, a universal war of devastation, had cut off the supply of every means of subsistence; industry and commerce seem to be destroyed; and why? Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property; on the contrary, they have become too powerful for these conditions, by which they are fettered, and so soon as they overcome these fetters, they bring disorder into the whole of bourgeois society, endanger the existence of bourgeois property. The conditions of bourgeois society are too narrow to comprise the wealth created by them. And how does the bourgeoisie get over these crises? On the one hand by enforced destruction of a mass of productive forces; on the other, by the conquest of new markets, and by the more thorough exploitation of the old ones. That is to say, by paving the way for more extensive and more destructive crises, and by diminishing the means whereby crises are prevented.

The weapons with which the bourgeoisie felled feudalism to the ground are now turned against the bourgeoisie itself.


The problem, as you say, is "reading in". The old man is not a thanksgiving turkey that you can carve up: "I'll take the breast meat"; "I want a drumstick". The parts depend on the whole.

Two minor points:
"I keep hearing people say that since we have moved away from manufacturing, more machine production, less of a 'labor' class in the realm of industrial production, that the framework of Marxism doesn't fit the current state of computer workers, more abstract service jobs etc...but that's irrelevant, isn't it?"
It is entirely irrelevant and not very accurate. Consider the issue from a global perspective. Is there "less" of a "labor" class? Is there less manufacturing? And ask those who work in each new segment of the economy ten years hence. Are "computer workers" immune from the proletarianization of their miserable craft or safe from "competition" with India or China. What "people" who say this really reveal is an intense parochialism that anchors their perspective in San Jose or Austin, and that, for only a few years...

"I have had a few other mild revelations (this is all within the first 10 pages or so, it's ridiculous). "
Marx is the most jam-packed writer around (I would say "dense", but it carries the wrong conotation in current usage). He started out that way and became more so. In the old days, we would do study groups where 8 to 15 people sat around for 2 or 3 hours, twice a week and simply read him out loud. Part of the reason was that many of the people in those groups had trouble reading. But, to be truthful, it was even more important during the times that the class was full of college teachers. Over a sample of hundreds of times, in each case the reading slowed to a crawl and sometimes to reading a line or two and then talking about it for hours...

It's in the nature of the beast.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:56 pm

Two Americas
05-02-2007, 12:02 PM
It is entirely irrelevant and not very accurate. Consider the issue from a global perspective. Is there "less" of a "labor" class? Is there less manufacturing? And ask those who work in each new segment of the economy ten years hence. Are "computer workers" immune from the proletarianization of their miserable craft or safe from "competition" with India or China. What "people" who say this really reveal is an intense parochialism that anchors their perspective in San Jose or Austin, and that, for only a few years...
In some ways it is worse. In the plant they weren't trying to control our minds, just our bodies. You might lose an arm in a press, but in the cubicle you can lose much more than that.
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Re: Capital and Nature

Post by blindpig » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:58 pm

wolfgang von skeptik
05-03-2007, 06:02 AM

(1)-Anaxarchos wrote:
Marx is the most jam-packed writer around (I would say "dense", but it carries the wrong connotation in current usage). He started out that way and became more so. In the old days, we would do study groups where 8 to 15 people sat around for 2 or 3 hours, twice a week and simply read him out loud. Part of the reason was that many of the people in those groups had trouble reading. But, to be truthful, it was even more important during the times that the class was full of college teachers. Over a sample of hundreds of times, in each case the reading slowed to a crawl and sometimes to reading a line or two and then talking about it for hours...
I have only two responses to this: I wish I had been there as a participant, and until I read this whole thread I had no idea how ignorant of Marx I truly am: despite all the gnarly applause given self-education, it is obviously as much an opportunity for self-delusion as it is for self enlightenment, and I see that clearly now that I've finally had an opportunity to read this thread from beginning to end. (I really am busy as hell; the book project on which I've been working for the past 14 months has at long last entered the writing phase.) I was especially struck by this:

Anaxarchos wrote (emphasis added):
That is not good enough for Burkett. He would like to turn Marx’s contradiction between capital and labor into a fundamental contradiction between capital and labor or nature. The intent is the same as with all “eco-socialists”: to make the struggle between capital and nature independent of class struggle, and even to give it primacy over such struggle. Just as in the discussion of Darwin and Malthus above, the intent is also to appropriate the slogans and authority of Marxism without paying much attention to its content.

I think from now on I'm going to spend a lot more time listening and a lot less time holding forth.

(2)-KOBH wrote:
Even after years of trying Ted Kacyznski couldn't master (making fire with flint and steel).
The trick Kid is using properly charred material to catch the spark. I have no idea what was used in ancient Europe but on this continent from the time of the European Conquest (which was also America's first contact with iron as the indigenous peoples here were all in the advanced Neolithic), the spark-catcher was charred cotton cloth. I learned the technique as part of standard Boy Scout preparation-for-the-back-country requirements in East Tennessee c. 1952: you strike sparks into the cloth and as soon as one spark remains alive you very gently surround it with tinder (typically cedar shavings or a pinch of field-mouse nest) and very carefully blow it into flame. Then you carefully place the burning bundle beneath the fire wood you have already laid into position -- typically a teepee shaped pile of twigs -- and blow that into flame, adding larger wood as it catches. It is a very intense process demanding a good deal of gentility and patience but once you have mastered it, which is not difficult, it takes less than five minutes. Also, there is debate as to whether one strikes the flint with the steel or vice versa: in my own experience this is determined by the relative size of the two items. Later as an older teen and an adult whenever I was hunting or fishing in genuine wilderness what I always carried as a backup to waterproof matches -- that is, matches I had dipped in tallow -- was two of the old Kodak 35mm film cans (about 1.5 inches deep and 4 inches in diameter); one contained the stub of a worn-out file, three or four pieces of flint and several layers of charred cotton cloth; the second can contained tightly packed cedar shavings sufficient to start a half-dozen fires. The two cans were taped shut to keep them waterproof and were included in a sort of "possibles bag" -- a canvas British Army shoulder bag that was separate from my back pack, weighed maybe five pounds and contained various essentials like a military poncho, first aid kit, pathfinder compass and sundry other survival items and always accompanied me when I was any distance away from camp or even when I was in real back country for day trips only.
"There is great chaos under heaven; the situation is excellent."

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